D300 Ok on Fresh Paint???

[Wills.WindowsAndWheels]

Hey i have a couple of fresh paint questions here. I got a call from a custom paint shop wanting me to polish out a car they just repainted...they're going to do the sanding and then the first main cut to remove the sanding marks, but then want us to come in and remove the swirls and polish it out.

Couple questions (hoping some of the vets on the forum will chime in for this one too).

First, do you think its ok for me to let these guys do the first pass to remove sanding marks or should i insist i do it? I'm unfamiliar with a rotary still so thats why i didn't volunteer, but feedback on this would be nice.

Secondly, as the title says, can i use D300 to cut the paint and then use Megs 205 to polish it out? I'm unsure of if these are 'bodyshop safe' products or not, obviously i can't wax it when im finished since its fresh paint.

Third, any tips on working with fresh paint?

Much appreciated guys thanks!

[mark58]

Hey i have a couple of fresh paint questions here. I got a call from a custom paint shop wanting me to polish out a car they just repainted...they're going to do the sanding and then the first main cut to remove the sanding marks, but then want us to come in and remove the swirls and polish it out.

Couple questions (hoping some of the vets on the forum will chime in for this one too).

First, do you think its ok for me to let these guys do the first pass to remove sanding marks or should i insist i do it? I'm unfamiliar with a rotary still so thats why i didn't volunteer, but feedback on this would be nice.

Secondly, as the title says, can i use D300 to cut the paint and then use Megs 205 to polish it out? I'm unsure of if these are 'bodyshop safe' products or not, obviously i can't wax it when im finished since its fresh paint.

Third, any tips on working with fresh paint?

Much appreciated guys thanks!

D300 was designed and recommended to be used on original paint. Try a test spot.

[TLMitchell]

First, do you think its ok for me to let these guys do the first pass to remove sanding marks or should i insist i do it? I'm unfamiliar with a rotary still so thats why i didn't volunteer, but feedback on this would be nice.

Secondly, as the title says, can i use D300 to cut the paint and then use Megs 205 to polish it out? I'm unsure of if these are 'bodyshop safe' products or not, obviously i can't wax it when im finished since its fresh paint.

Third, any tips on working with fresh paint?

I don't have personal experience so my thoughts may be worth about what you paid for them...

If you have no rotary experience removing sanding marks I don't think you have much basis for insisting on you doing that part of the operation. Then again, what grit? If they're refining with 3000 you can probably flatten things out with 105/DA.

To my knowledge the only Meg's body shop safe products are the Mirror Glaze line. If I was working in someone else's body shop environment I think that's what I'd be using.

If you're thinking D300 you may also be thinking MF DA pads. Depending on the painter and hardener mix you may be dealing with a soft finish, MF is very hazy on soft paints, especially black.

Like any other job, you've got to do a test spot and see exactly what you're working with and how it responds. Probably want to take a good variety of products and pads... I'd guess 105 & 205 ought to be able to do anything you'd want. Unless it's one of those goofy finishes 205 just doesn't want to finish mar free.

TL

[Wills.WindowsAndWheels]

I don't have personal experience so my thoughts may be worth about what you paid for them...

If you have no rotary experience removing sanding marks I don't think you have much basis for insisting on you doing that part of the operation. Then again, what grit? If they're refining with 3000 you can probably flatten things out with 105/DA.

To my knowledge the only Meg's body shop safe products are the Mirror Glaze line. If I was working in someone else's body shop environment I think that's what I'd be using.

If you're thinking D300 you may also be thinking MF DA pads. Depending on the painter and hardener mix you may be dealing with a soft finish, MF is very hazy on soft paints, especially black.

Like any other job, you've got to do a test spot and see exactly what you're working with and how it responds. Probably want to take a good variety of products and pads... I'd guess 105 & 205 ought to be able to do anything you'd want. Unless it's one of those goofy finishes 205 just doesn't want to finish mar free.

TL

I agree that D300 finishes hazy on non-factory black paint. BUT 205 (from my experience thus far) clears in up perfectly. I do plan on bringing plenty of products (different types) but do like D300. I guess my main concern was if it would be leaving any residue that would tamper with the curing?

[Mike Phillips]

Hey i have a couple of fresh paint questions here. I got a call from a custom paint shop wanting me to polish out a car they just repainted...they're going to do the sanding and then the first main cut to remove the sanding marks, but then want us to come in and remove the swirls and polish it out.


Not a bad deal, that is let them do the grunt work and you play clean up, I've buffed a lot of projects like this and it puts the risk on their part for the sanding portion. That is if they sand through any edges etc.

My guess is they're hand sanding? Then probably cutting with something aggressive. If the above is true all you'll have to do is remove any Tracers and the swirls they leave behind. Normally for projects like this the painter sprays plenty of clear so you shouldn't have to worry about thin spots unless the guys sanding and compounding create them. Also, as long everyone gets right on it the paint will be easier to buff, like within the first week after it comes out of the paint booth.






Couple questions (hoping some of the vets on the forum will chime in for this one too).

First, do you think its ok for me to let these guys do the first pass to remove sanding marks or should i insist i do it? I'm unfamiliar with a rotary still so thats why i didn't volunteer, but feedback on this would be nice.


Let them do it, the first two steps are major work steps. Sanding down an entire car is a lot of work and part of the work is focusing on the task at hand, that is paying attention to any edges or raised body lines. A good rule of thumb is to not sand where you cannot safely get your buffing pad unless you have the time to remove sanding marks by hand or do some surgical buffing with small pads.

IF the guys doing the sanding and buffing have been doing this for a while they should really know what they're doing, that doesn't mean they're good at it but they should know what to do as well as what not to do.

The Rule of Thumb (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25042-rule-thumb.html)



If I had my choice all the flat panels would be machine sanded, not hand sanded. This will make the sanding marks more even in the paint and thus buff out easier, faster and more consistently assuming the last sanding steps are done with at least #3000 grit discs. This would apply to whoever does the first cut with the wool pad but will still help you do your work better.




Secondly, as the title says, can i use D300 to cut the paint and then use Megs 205 to polish it out? I'm unsure of if these are 'bodyshop safe' products or not, obviously i can't wax it when I'm finished since its fresh paint.


D300 is not body shop safe, use M105 or M86 instead.



Third, any tips on working with fresh paint?


Yes.

After the guys that go before you are finished with their portion of the job do the same walk around you would do on any car you were buffing out for a customer and look for mistakes.

Mistakes = edges and corners that are burned through and look for tracers if they hand sanded or pigtails if they machine sanded. Find these before you buff and note them on your inspection sheet. What's going to happen is you're going to buff out the swirls and all the deeper defects are going to remain, these will be the tracers and the pigtails. Nothing you can do about them except to ether re-sand or continue buffing till they are gone. OR it could be the shop is not concerned with little details like this and they don't expect you to either.

What kind of car is this and what is the goal? Show car finish? Or "pretty good".

I would pay a visit to my local PBE store and purchase some thin painter's tape, you can get 1/4' and 1/8th inch and you can use these for two thing,

Tape over a raised body line to protect it
Tape over a raised body line to visually be aware of it

Paint is thinnest on a raised body line because of gravity, that is the liquid paint will then to flow downward away from a high point, (it certainly won't flow upward), and if the guys that go before you are not careful and/or not focusing on the task at hand, it's real easy to sand over body lines because the paint being sanded off will camouflage the surface making it hard to see the body line. (back to focusing on the task at hand).

Besides sanding, when they compound if they run the buffer too much over the body line then both the sanding and the compounding will make the paint thinner on the raised body line.

You run a tape line down just the raised edge of the body line and you can see and thus avoid it. After you're first step of removing the swirls, the remove the tape and simply polish using your finish polish. This will remove any tape line residue and ensure a uniform, glossy appearance over the entire panel.

Here's an excerpt from the above article, The Rule of Thumb, (I recommend reading the entire article)

How to sand right up to an edge and remove your sanding marks by hand
There is a fix for the issue of sanding right next to an edge or a raised body line and that's by carefully sanding and then using Meguiar's M105 Ultra Compound by hand to remove your sanding marks. Another way to remove sanding marks next to an edge or to a raised body line is to use Spot Repair Pads on a rotary buffer using a technique I call Edging.

Because M105 is aggressive, (rated at being able to remove #1200 Grit Sanding Marks on fresh paint), and recommended for use by hand, you can easily remove sanding marks by hand if you're willing to put a little passion behind the pad (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/23568-put-little-passion-behind-pad-mike-phillips.html).

There are a lot of compounds that can be applied by hand to remove sanding marks, but it's the ability of the super micro abrasive technology, (SMAT), used in M105 that gives it both its' cutting ability and the ability to polish out clear and glossy that makes M105 Ultra Compound a good choice for carefully rubbing out sanding marks right up to an edge or a raised body line by hand.

Note: The blue line you see in the pictures below is vinyl tape applied over the top of a body lines on the hood of this 1969 El Camino to make it easier to see and protect them. You can also do this with the edges of a panel.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/RemvovingSandingMarksbyHand02.jpg


In the picture examples above, the raised body lines running down the hood can be hard to see once you start sanding a panel as you'll have paint slurry all over the panel thus camouflaging the raised body line. Like this, note how it's harder to see where the tape lines are with paint slurry on the panel...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/UnigritDampSanding002.jpg

If you don't know exactly where the raised body lines are, it's all to easy to accidentally run your sanding disk, (by machine), or sanding paper, (by hand), over the raised portion of the body line and remove way too much paint way too quickly.

While you might not sand through the clear layer on the body line if you accidentally sand on top of it, remember you still will have to compound and polish the paint and compounding and polishing will also remove some paint; so the risk of sanding or burning through the paint on a raised body line is great.


Here's a tip...
Take a moment to mark any raised body lines with some thin painter's tape and avoid a costly and time-consuming mistake.

You can also tape-off any edges to protect them and to make them clearly visible while you're sanding.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_023.jpg



If you have one of these then take it. If you find tracers or pigtails you can quickly sand them flat with a small footprint and the remove your sanding marks quickly and easily. Chances are very good the guys in the body shop and never seen this small tool and possibly the 3" Unigrit Discs and once they see them and use them they'll want them.


Dampsanding with 3" Griot's Garage Mini Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/38475-dampsanding-3-griot-s-garage-mini-polisher.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding006.jpg







To my knowledge the only Meg's body shop safe products are the Mirror Glaze line. If I was working in someone else's body shop environment I think that's what I'd be using.




Good advice.

At one point in my life I was an Outside Sales Rep and Trainer for Meguiar's in Oregon, Washington and Idaho and I called on Body Shops, Dealerships and Detail Shops and out of the 3 types of businesses the one thing I didn't do was to bring products into a fresh paint environment that could contaminate the shop, that is any type of Consumer Product as these tend to have ingredients that can cause surface adhesion problems like Fish Eyes.

You also don't take products that can seal the paint no matter what the name on the label, if it seals the paint, (cleaner/wax, carnauba wax, synthetic paint sealant, coating), or anything that makes water bead up... that's not a generally a product you want in a fresh paint environment.


:xyxthumbs:

[Wills.WindowsAndWheels]

Not a bad deal, that is let them do the grunt work and you play clean up, I've buffed a lot of projects like this and it puts the risk on their part for the sanding portion. That is if they sand through any edges etc.

My guess is they're hand sanding? Then probably cutting with something aggressive. If the above is true all you'll have to do is remove any Tracers and the swirls they leave behind. Normally for projects like this the painter sprays plenty of clear so you shouldn't have to worry about thin spots unless the guys sanding and compounding create them. Also, as long everyone gets right on it the paint will be easier to buff, like within the first week after it comes out of the paint booth.





Let them do it, the first two steps are major work steps. Sanding down an entire car is a lot of work and part of the work is focusing on the task at hand, that is paying attention to any edges or raised body lines. A good rule of thumb is to not sand where you cannot safely get your buffing pad unless you have the time to remove sanding marks by hand or do some surgical buffing with small pads.

IF the guys doing the sanding and buffing have been doing this for a while they should really know what they're doing, that doesn't mean they're good at it but they should know what to do as well as what not to do.

The Rule of Thumb (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25042-rule-thumb.html)



If I had my choice all the flat panels would be machine sanded, not hand sanded. This will make the sanding marks more even in the paint and thus buff out easier, faster and more consistently assuming the last sanding steps are done with at least #3000 grit discs. This would apply to whoever does the first cut with the wool pad but will still help you do your work better.




D300 is not body shop safe, use M105 or M86 instead.



Yes.

After the guys that go before you are finished with their portion of the job do the same walk around you would do on any car you were buffing out for a customer and look for mistakes.

Mistakes = edges and corners that are burned through and look for tracers if they hand sanded or pigtails if they machine sanded. Find these before you buff and note them on your inspection sheet. What's going to happen is you're going to buff out the swirls and all the deeper defects are going to remain, these will be the tracers and the pigtails. Nothing you can do about them except to ether re-sand or continue buffing till they are gone. OR it could be the shop is not concerned with little details like this and they don't expect you to either.

What kind of car is this and what is the goal? Show car finish? Or "pretty good".

I would pay a visit to my local PBE store and purchase some thin painter's tape, you can get 1/4' and 1/8th inch and you can use these for two thing,

Tape over a raised body line to protect it
Tape over a raised body line to visually be aware of it


:xyxthumbs:

Appreciate the info as always Mike. David over at Autopia advised the same thing with D300 not being body shop safe, said it has silicone in it...so looks like 105 it is. I'll answer some of your questions now.

Not sure if its hand or machine sanding, but yes then they are suppose to cut it with a wool pad afterwards to remove sanding marks. This is my first 'body shop' experience so i wanted to make sure i have all my bases covered and already ive learned a few more ?s i need to ask when having a job like this assigned to me (as far as hand or machine sanding, grit being used, time paint will have cured etc.)

The shop i was told has been in business for 5 years...as for the experience of the guys i'm not sure. I'll be sure to do a walk around first, make any notes...take pictures etc. I find myself doing the pictures of cars now even when i'm not doing write ups on them, just to show 'this this and this' was here before we touched anything.

The story of the car is a rather funny one...maybe you can give a little feedback on your impression of this as well Mike. I think you saw the write up i did on the 2010 Camaro SS (i believe you made a post/comment on it, but i know you have about 20k posts so NOT sure if you remember it or not lol) 2010 772 HP BLACK Camaro SS...Swirl City - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/39687-2010-772-hp-black-camaro-ss-swirl-city.html)

Its the SAME CAR. You also commented on ANOTHER post i made when the owner got back from a show and had white spots all over the paint. Well to make a long story short, turned out whatever it was ate through the clear all the way to the base and ended up having to have the whole car repainted...and well...here we are.

Here is the funny part, I got a call from the paint shop owner earlier this week, finally got to talk with him yesterday, he tells me he found me on a forum looked up my site etc. He said "My guys don't have the time or ability to finish out a car the way you did like the Camaro on your site" (note the camaro on my site is the SAME one) and he "wanted to know what it would cost to come and polish out the car into that type of condition"

He made no mention that this was the SAME car. I found out by going to his website, just looking at picture innocently to see what kind of work he's done and i come across this 2010 Camaro that looks shockingly like the one i did...then i KNEW it was the same due to a few custom things the owner had done to it. So I'm slightly suspicious of the whole situation.

As for what i'm doing, i'm going to remove the swirls and polish the paint out (so 105 followed by 205) and leave it at that. I'm going to do my best work of course but he isn't paying me to sand out left over RIDS etc but i WILL make note of them when I'm finished.

I do have a couple other questions but I'd rather PM you or talk to you over the phone if possible about it (if thats possible?)

Again, appreciate the help as always Mike..just want to do my best with my first body shop experience and knew i'd get plenty of good advice from on here :dblthumb2:

[Mike Phillips]

I'll be sure to do a walk around first, make any notes...take pictures etc.



Good idea. Don't make a production about it for this kind of situation, just quietly and without any fanfare look at any edges, corners and raised body lines.

I would take a swirl finder light for yourself but to also let them see you inspecting for swirls. The point isn't to let them see you inspecting for swirls it's to introduce them to a tool they probably don't know exists and what and how it's used. It also shows them you know a little bit about inspecting and polishing paint.




I do have a couple other questions but I'd rather PM you or talk to you over the phone if possible about it (if thats possible?)


You can call me at the office on Monday, ext 206 I'm getting ready to leave for the day...





Again, appreciate the help as always Mike..just want to do my best with my first body shop experience and knew I'd get plenty of good advice from on here


You're going to do great!

I'm already looking forward to hearing about your success...


:)

[Wills.WindowsAndWheels]

Good idea. Don't make a production about it for this kind of situation, just quietly and without any fanfare look at any edges, corners and raised body lines.

I would take a swirl finder light for yourself but to also let them see you inspecting for swirls. The point isn't to let them see you inspecting for swirls it's to introduce them to a tool they probably don't know exists and what and how it's used. It also shows them you know a little bit about inspecting and polishing paint.



You can call me at the office on Monday, ext 206 I'm getting ready to leave for the day...





You're going to do great!

I'm already looking forward to hearing about your success...


:)

Yeah this is one where i want to just go do the job, get the experience, get my foot into a new door and show what i can do. I dont go to any job with out my swirl light, even if im NOT expecting to do a polish out, i still take it. Sometimes they'll come out after a wash and wax and compliment on how great the job looks...and ill show them (again) that even after the wax, it would look THIS much better if these swirls were gone. Sometimes it works, or sometimes i'll get "well i dont care about it on this car but on THIS one"..and bingo, polishing job :)

Appreciate the help Mike, i'll talk with you soon