Just did a side-by-side - help please!

[ElliottG]

Hey guys

So a few weeks ago I bought an arsenal or products which are shown here:

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314684105.png

So I started by washing and claying the car. With that done, I started with the 7424XP. At first I used a white foam pad with M205 because I've read that it's best to try and do the best job with as little damage as possible; so that's what I tried first.

Anyway, that didn't end up doing much, and there were still a bunch of tiny scratches that were scattered around the panel.

So I moved on to using a Surbuf pad along with M105, and then repeated with the white pad/M205 as before.

And again, there are still some scratches remaining. These scratches aren't deep and I can't even feel them with my fingernail...so I don't know why they didn't come out?

I primed all my pads as shown in this post: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/35518-getting-my-griot-s-da-polisher-today-need-some-direction.html#post462440

Any ideas? I know pictures would help but it's dark out here so I will grab some tomorrow when the panel is sitting in the sun so you can see the difference between the two. I used a construction lamp to try and see what was going on but no luck.

And finally, I "washed" the pads with the car soap and water, is this an accepted method to use? How do I know when they're clean? It seems like they always have product on them lol.

Thanks guys,
Elliott

[storm100]

Pictures would help. There are a lot of pros on here that will chime in. I don't use the surbuf pads so can't comment. However, it looks like you purchased the snappy clean and I can say that it works the best for my LC foam pads. The only residue that stays in my experience is Optimum polish. Nice list though.

[ElliottG]

Pictures would help. There are a lot of pros on here that will chime in. I don't use the surbuf pads so can't comment. However, it looks like you purchased the snappy clean and I can say that it works the best for my LC foam pads. The only residue that stays in my experience is Optimum polish. Nice list though.

Thanks I'll get some tomorrow in the sun to see the real difference.

[rider9195]

Sometimes you just have to live with some scratches on your paint. It's tough and frustrating not being able to get that perfect finish all the time.

[tuscarora dave]

How large or small of a work section are you working in? How many section passes are you doing in each section? Are you using a very slow side to side arm speed? What machine speed setting are you working at?

[ElliottG]

Sometimes you just have to live with some scratches on your paint. It's tough and frustrating not being able to get that perfect finish all the time.

Yea I guess that's true. The car has had a pretty rough life...12 years old and gone through 12 winters...Salty Canadian winters...


How large or small of a work section are you working in? How many section passes are you doing in each section? Are you using a very slow side to side arm speed? What machine speed setting are you working at?

Half my trunk. I think about 3 section passes. The problem is that I primed my pad and put 3 spots on it, put the pad onto the panel, started it up on speed 1, and tried to move it around as fast as I could to spread the product around the panel but it seemed like there was barely any product on the car...so I didn't want to do more section passes than that. Maybe I had too little on the car or too much on the pad I have no idea! I'm new at this.

And yes quite slow. Moderate pressure.

Machine speed is set to around 4.5

[Rsurfer]

And yes quite slow. Moderate pressure.

Machine speed is set to around 4.5

Slow arm movement, meaning 1 inch per second. Put an X on your backing plate or the edge of the pad and be sure that the pad is spinning. You should be able to put about 15 lbs. of pressure. If you can stand the vibration kick it up to 6 or at least 5.:buffing:

[shoeless89]

:iagree:

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Elliott,





And again, there are still some scratches remaining.



How would you describe the condition of the paint before your started?

Did the paint have the normal cobweb type swirls throughout the entire finish? Like this?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/935/Sept18Class001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/935/Sept18Class002.jpg


Here's a great example of Cobweb Swirls
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/935/Sept18Class003.jpg





:)

[Kurt_s]

What type of vehicle?

I found that I needed less M105 with the surbufs. Ron's right on with the 5-6 setting and 15lbs of pressure. Nice slow movement.

Tape off an 18" square to make sure that you are working in a small enough square since you seem to be new to the XP. One of my biggest errors early on was working in too large an area.

Clean the pad between sections (I used a terry towel and a stiff brush) to remove compound and removed paint. I also fluffed the microfingers so they didn't lie flat before moving to the next section.

Hope that helps.

[Mike Phillips]

What type of vehicle?

I found that I needed less M105 with the surbufs. Ron's right on with the 5-6 setting and 15lbs of pressure. Nice slow movement.

Tape off an 18" square to make sure that you are working in a small enough square since you seem to be new to the XP. One of my biggest errors early on was working in too large an area.

Clean the pad between sections (I used a terry towel and a stiff brush) to remove compound and removed paint. I also fluffed the microfingers so they didn't lie flat before moving to the next section.

Hope that helps.


All great points Kurt...


Elliot, read through this and see if anything stands out...


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/37769-da-polisher-trouble-shooting-guide.html)


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,


1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.



Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-floating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html) you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

Removed paint


Spent product


As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.


Pad Cleaning Articles

Why it's important to clean your pads often... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html)

How to clean your foam pad on the fly (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/20135-how-clean-your-foam-pad-fly.html)

How to use the Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24325-video-how-use-grit-guard-universal-pad-washer.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/images/smilies/buffing.gif

[ElliottG]

Hi Elliott,

How would you describe the condition of the paint before your started?

Did the paint have the normal cobweb type swirls throughout the entire finish? Like this?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/935/Sept18Class001.jpg

:)

I would say this panel looked like #1


What type of vehicle?

I found that I needed less M105 with the surbufs. Ron's right on with the 5-6 setting and 15lbs of pressure. Nice slow movement.

Tape off an 18" square to make sure that you are working in a small enough square since you seem to be new to the XP. One of my biggest errors early on was working in too large an area.

Clean the pad between sections (I used a terry towel and a stiff brush) to remove compound and removed paint. I also fluffed the microfingers so they didn't lie flat before moving to the next section.

Hope that helps.

'99 VW Passat

Thanks but I think that the panel I was doing was quite small...around the 18"x18" like you said. What did you use to fluff the microfibers? This is on the Surbuf pad I guess you're talking about?

There are definitely less swirls than the left side but there is still some cob webbing spread on the panel...the other panels on the car are worse than this (this is probably the best panel on the car so this is what I tried first).

I took some pics of what it looks like. Note that this is from 2 days after doing the "detail" so it is a bit dirty again.

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314891106.jpg

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314922054.jpg

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314872853.jpg

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314932475.jpg

I did the RIGHT side of the trunk. It's very hard to see through because no sun was directly on it in this pic...

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314870538.jpg

http://74.52.147.194/~devilthe/uploads/1314835452.jpg

First pic is the best to see the remaining damage. It's hard to see on the other pics but I did the RIGHT side of the trunk. The other side wasn't even clayed.

Elliott

[ElliottG]

Anyone any opinions on what I should/n't be doing? Maybe I wasn't putting enough pressure on the pad or something?

[dtuna42]

My new PC came with some Pinnacle pad cleaner and I think the stuff works great. I did notice however that the white pads, which are more absorbent than the others, are a little harder to clean.

[ElliottG]

Yea I have about 7-8 of these things:

Lake Country Snappy Clean Pad Cleaner | Detailed Image (http://www.detailedimage.com/Lake-Country-M7/Snappy-Clean-Pad-Cleaner-P62/)

But I haven't used them yet...I just tried soap and water.

So what do people think about the pictures I posted?