Thoughts on Sanding...

[Ted S.]

I was browsing on linkedin.com a few weeks ago for detailing groups, and was reading one of the discussions on detailing concerning sanding, specifically wet-sanding.

Now please understand that I am not a professional detailer, but a hard-core DIY-er. I wet-sand and color sand quite frequently just for experience, and for fun.

What I had read on the discussion really pissed me off, and maybe I'm just over reacting, but would like some opinions from the true professionals who detail for a living. One of the "Professional Detailers" commented that [wet] sanding has no place in detailing, and that it something for body shops to deal with. He basically insinuated that “Real” Professional Detailers do not sand.

I've seen some amazing results when paint is sanded before compounding and polishing, both on this forum and in my own experience. I think in many cases, sanding is necessary for that "show car" finish. Sanding is also an awesome way of getting rid of orange peel that those body shops leave behind.

Some of my favorite "Show n Shine" threads have involved extensive wet or damp sanding before buffing to a flawless finish.
:rant:

So, If ya'll don't mind me asking, how do you feel about sanding as a benifit to detailing? Or do you agree with the above mentioned"Professional Detailer's" thoughts... that sanding is something for body shops?

[JonMiles]

I think wetsanding is an essential skill to have when detailing as a professional. Without it, many cars cannot be brought to their full potential.

[kimtyson]

It's sort of like saying vacuuming and cleaning the windows is for the maid only. Seems a little absurd to me.

[Ted S.]

Thanks for the feedback. Just making sure I'm not loopy.

[FUNX650]

Wet-sanding/color-sanding (interchangeable terms, IMO) and damp-sanding are indeed HUGE assets for a Professional Detailer to have in his/her arsenal. A HUGE money-maker for their business.

A Professional Detailer will know the right questions to ask of the customers, and have the knowledge and training to ascertain the differences between factory cured paint and re-sprays by body shops/paint shops. They will also know the limitations that apply to either one.

My first impression of the comments made by the aforementioned Professional Detailer was that he had seen, from hands-on experience no doubt, wet-sanding turn ugly...the top-coat paint film had been compromised! If the vehicle, or panels from that vehicle, were at a body shop/paint shop, a needed repair/respray would be close by.

Not trying to defend his statements....just acknowledging that he would not be my Professional Detailer of choice. :)

Bob

[C. Charles Hahn]

I think it's a little short-sighted to say that wet sanding has no place in a detail shop.

In all reality, it is often times possible to remove defects from a paint finish in a more controlled manner with fine-grit sanding than it is with a buffer and heavy compound, ultimately resulting in the removal of far less of the film build (which, in the hands of the right technician, makes sanding SAFER than heavy compounding).

Not only that, but as Bob mentioned it can be a major up-sell to customers in the sense that it takes far more skill and knowledge of the finish being worked on to safely and properly perform the sanding procedure.

[Kristopher1129]

Wet sanding is not seen as a necessary skill by all detailers because not all of them can do it. Of course a detailer who can not wet sand will say it has no place.

Fact of the matter is...all PROFESSIONAL detailers most likely have the skill of being able to wet/damp sand. I've wet sanded MANY times, and it's the only way to truly produce results on deeper scratches that compound or polish won't touch.

There's quite a few reasons detailers have to sand. A lot of times you'll run into a situation where it's your only option. Wet sanding will bring scratches that are too deep for compound restoration, back to a uniform repairable grit. Therefore allowing us to achieve the results desired.

The funny thing is...that this "guy" says wet sanding should be left to a body guy. But, a body guy will see a scratch...and just paint the whole panel over again. But a detailer would repair the scratch, and eliminate the need to paint.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/179646_10150089150674927_106866159926_5712877_1556 799_n.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/180317_10150089151364927_106866159926_5712897_6969 325_n.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/180813_10150089149034927_106866159926_5712848_2841 020_n.jpg

That's why we wet sand. A body guy would have painted this...no doubt about it. There was one heavy scratch that was WAY too deep. But the rest...no problem.

[john b]

i guess that guy does not like makeing money on headlights either.i am not a pro at all,butt i will doe details on the side, i did a 2000 red honda that had some oarnge peel on the hood[pretty light that i got out] the custemer wanted it taken care of that day.and since then i have done a couple of her friends cars.

[The Heater]

Well, let's not distort things. Wet sanding is helpful for certain defect removal, but some people will prefer not to use it as a method of correction if the paint is invaded too deeply by the defect.

Ask people how much BBQ sauce to use on ribs. You'll get a number of "right" answers. Same thing here.

"A body shop would have painted this...no doubt about it". Yes, and if that was my car I would take it to my preferred shop and have it painted, "no doubt about it". No way I have a detailer try to fix it, because as stated in that post, one scratch was too deep to correct.

If someone wants to spend the money to repaint it, that is what they will do. And it is the best way to fix some problems. If you have to invade the paint too deeply to make it shiny, you are just prolonging the inevitable repaint of the panel and to correct it without repainting you have to take the paint down too far. For people who can't afford that service, detailing is the next best thing. And wet sanding can be used by detailers. But no way it is a panacea for paint defects, nor is it some kind of magic way to fix stuff that, if you want it restored to fabulous condition, truly requires repainting.

And contrary to that other post, some body shops will correct the defect without repainting, if in their expert opinion it can be done.

[john b]

I think it's a little short-sighted to say that wet sanding has no place in a detail shop.

In all reality, it is often times possible to remove defects from a paint finish in a more controlled manner with fine-grit sanding than it is with a buffer and heavy compound, ultimately resulting in the removal of far less of the film build (which, in the hands of the right technician, makes sanding SAFER than heavy compounding).

Not only that, but as Bob mentioned it can be a major up-sell to customers in the sense that it takes far more skill and knowledge of the finish being worked on to safely and properly perform the sanding procedure.
great point

[Ted S.]

I sand defects and orange peel as often as possible. I hate orange peel. I like Kris's example.Some people don't want to pay a body shop for a repaint.

Honestly, most people(non-detailing oriented) people really don't give a crap whether their Daily Driver is "perfect" or not. As long as it doesn't look too horrible. The example Kris shows; maybe his customer didn't want to pay for a pricey respray, when Kris can go and wet-sand, compound and polish in a relatively short period of time, and the customer is content, perhaps even estatic, and Kris did an awesome job.

Additionally, it takes FOREVER to sand through some of the clear coats, especially with 2.5k+ grit sand paper, unless you are using a machine. Hell, just two months ago me and a friend were repainting his roof that had heavy clear coat failure, and with 180 grit, it took almost an hour to remove all of the clear (doing this by hand).

I think detailers who sand shouldn't catch any flak because they choose to sand. Some of the clears out there are pretty thick, and some are way too thin. If sandpaper can be used (in my experience), it should be, and is a great option. Time and money is being saved. Just my opinion, though…it’s not like I haven’t done it enough to know that it’s not as dangerous as some claim it to be or anything…

[Mike Phillips]

The big picture is to use the right tool for the job.

Almost 2 years ago I wrote this article to try to help clear up any confusion over the topic or wetsanding because what I perceived was a lot of talk about sanding in general but no explanation as to when and where the majority of sanding is performed.

Another observation I've made over the years has to do with the wetsanding classes I've taught for both Meguiar's and now for Autogeek, here's the observation...

The majority of people that have attended a class on sanding paint, (both hand sanding and machine sanding), for the most part have no idea what's involved and just how much work and time are required to sand down and buff out an entire car.

I can easily say the the majority of people that have attended a wetsanding class come to the realization that for the most part, they will never sand down and entire car and then buff it out unless they work in the collision industry or are working at becoming a high-end detailer that can tackle such complicated projects.

Anyway, to try to help people figure out what sanding is all about and to put everything it the proper perspective, here's the article I wrote on the topic.


Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/21471-wet-sanding-fresh-paint-vs-factory-paint.html)






In all reality, it is often times possible to remove defects from a paint finish in a more controlled manner with fine-grit sanding than it is with a buffer and heavy compound, ultimately resulting in the removal of far less of the film build (which, in the hands of the right technician, makes sanding SAFER than heavy compounding).




I would agree with the above as that basically means use the right tool for the job.

I also touched on this exact message when explaining the Meguiar's philosophy behind the purpose of the Unigrit Sanding discs as they relate to the detailing industry, not the body shop industry.

From this article, at the bottom of the first post...

Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25915-damp-sanding-tools-tips-techniques-mike-phillips.html)






Dampsanding Factory Paint
Because the factory finish on new cars, truck and s.u.v.s are thin, sanding and compounding should only be used to correct serious below surface defects as an option and if you have confidence the paint has not been sanded or compounded previously and of course, confidence in your skills and abilities.

Enables you to buff cooler
The theory behind using Meguiar's Unigrit Sanding and Finishing discs to sand thin, factory paint is that while it adds a step in most detailing processes, it saves time overall because it enables you to remove the defects faster by requiring less passes with your rotary buffer and aggressive compounds. This reduces heat, enabling you to buff cooler and can also help to reduce deep swirls.

More Control
Without sanding, you don't know how deep the defects are so you don't know how aggressive you need to get in order to remove them, the only way to find out is by trial and error. With Unigrit Sanding and Finishing Discs, you have control over the depth of the sanding marks thus you have more control over the compounding step.

Keep in mind that all the UV protection for the basecoat is suspended in the clear coat or clear layer of paint sprayed over the basecoat or colored layer paint. You need approximately 1.3 mils of clear to provide enough UV protection to protect the color coat from failing. New cars come with approximately 2.0 mils of clear paint so you have a little wiggle room for sanding and buffing but always follow the practice of,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"




One thing I know... sanding is putting scratches into the paint, that's the easy part, anyone can sand. The tricky part is removing the sanding marks without making a mistake.


:D

[SuperGlide]

It's a great skill for any Detailer to have.

I think it gets a bad rap because to many
Inexperienced detailers try it on customers
Cars before there ready.

When perfected it works like magic !

[dsottum]

Wet sanding has saved multiple resprays and leveled out several touch up paint jobs to make it look OE again. There's no need to limit your spectrum when it comes to detailing :)

[Mike Phillips]

Wet sanding has saved multiple resprays and leveled out several touch up paint jobs to make it look OE again. There's no need to limit your spectrum when it comes to detailing :)


Good point... the sanding procedure is an option and for some jobs it's the best option.


Here's an example of a garage paint job that is probably the worst example of orange peel plus dirt in the paint that I've ever seen,

Pictures & Comments from July 10th, 2011 Sunday Detailing 102 - Advanced Class (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-sunday-detailing-102-advanced-class/38253-pictures-comments-july-10th-2011-sunday-detailing-102-advanced-class.html)

The victim...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/500_1971GTODampSand002.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/medium/1971GTODampSand004.jpg

This is what you call ORANGE PEEL!!!
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/medium/GTOorangepeel001.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1208/medium/IMG_28502.JPG



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1208/medium/IMG_28541.JPG



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding006.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding007.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/mini3dampsanding009.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/GTOPearl07.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/GTOPearl06.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/GTOPearl18.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1206/GTOPearl19.jpg




The good news is a group of people with little or now sanding experience successfully sanded and buffed out this paint job saving it from having to be re-sprayed.

This GTO is at the upholstery shop getting a new interior. After that I'll try to get it back down here after all the trim has been re-installed.



The key to sanding starts with planning ahead of time as this leads to sufficient film-build... more paint is better. This circles back around to the fact that most sanding is done in a body shop situation where if the painter knows the car is to be sanded he will spray more top coat onto the car.

In a detailing environment... the detailer doesn't have this option.


:)