Mike Phillips
08-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Hi everyone,
This is my first post here so I thought I would give this a shot.
Hi Mike,
Welcome to Autogeek Online!
I have a 2003 black 325XI. It has a ton of swirls in the paint from the previous owner and some RIDS. I want to get most of the swirls out if I can but I'm still a little lost so I was trying to see if someone can point me in the right direction.
Alright so I bought the Fav Four Kit from auto geek and it contains:
16 oz. Menzerna PowerGloss Compound MEN-POS34AP
16 oz. Menzerna Power Finish MEN-PO203SP
16 oz. Menzerna Super Finish MEN-PO106FAP
16 oz. Menzerna Sealing Wax MEN-APO60P
I also bout two cyan hydro tech pads and two tangerine ones and 2 red ones. I have a PC and a Flex PE 14-2-150.
That's a very complete collection of tools, tools meaning pads, products and actual "tool". You'll be able to tackle just about anything that comes you're way with the above.
Normally it's not a good idea to learn how to use a rotary buffer on anything that's important to you, especially black but if you're careful, take your time and focus on the task at hand you'll be alright.
Start out buffing the flat horizontal surfaces and it's just plain easy to stand and buff on something that's like a table, you know, the hood and trunk lid and they'll be about waist high.
The most important thing is to first get the car incredibly clean, here's why from my e-book on using a PC
Air Currents
Spinning buffing pads create air-currents on the surface and it’s possible for this air current to draw any loose dirt particles into the buffing process, trapping them between the paint and the pad, potentially inflicting swirls and scratches throughout the entire finish. So for this reason, it’s vitally important to thoroughly wash and rinse the car as well as clean your pad often and inspect paint that you've polished to catch any problems as soon as possible.
I can tell you from experience, if you do a stellar job of washing the car your chances of having any problems are almost zero.
I want to get more practice with a rotary. With this combo what would be the ideal speed to get the correction. 1800rpms with the cyan and power finish? Then tangerine with super finish and what speed?
All of the above products and pads can be used in a range of 1000 RPM to 1500 RPM, in my opinion, you don't need to use higher RPM's for modern clear coats. Higher RPM's will create heat faster and heat isn't your friend when working on a clear coat finish.
For the correction work, experiment with a range of 1200 RPM to 1600 RPM
On the Flex PE14 here's the speed settings for the variable speed dial
1 = 600 RPMs
2 = 900 RPMs
3 = 1200 RPMs
4 = 1500 RPMs
5 = 1800 RPMs
6 = 2100 RPMs
So do some testing/practicing between the 2 and 5 settings.
Most important --> Clean your pads often and always wipe off any spent residue from a panel before adding fresh product.
Notice how when you first start with a clean, dry pad how easy it is to buff, then notice how as you continue buffing how actually guiding the rotary buffer over the paint becomes more difficult and the residue can become more difficult to wipe off. This happens as your pads become wet with product and get a build-up of residue in them and on the working face.
All you have to do is switch to a fresh clean, dry pad and notice how it gets easy to buff again, this is just the nature of the beast. To make buffing as easy as possible when you have a limited number of buffing pads... clean your pads often...
With a rotary buffer, use a nylon brush for foam pads and a spur for wool pads. There's technique called
Cleaning your pad on the fly
That works with both DA Polishers and Rotary Buffers, it works really well with foam and I' teach it in all or classes but I don't have any pictures or videos of it online, (yet), but I'll see if I can at least get a picture or an iPhone video showing it today or tomorrow.
Also, since this is a learning experience, I would recommend just tackling a section of the car at one time so you don't burn-out. Tackling the entire car in a day or a weekend is a very tiring and time-consuming project; it will be more fun if you break the project up into segments, for example tackle the horizontal panels, roof, hood and trunk lid one day and then the vertical panels another day or weekend.
Or tackle the front clip, that is the hood and front fenders. I would recommend tackling the roof though because if you buff out the hood and trunk lid first, then when you buff out the roof you'll throw splatter dots onto polished paint. Of course you can also use soft towels or a blanket to cover these panels if you buff the roof later.
As for products...
"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done" (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/28505-use-least-aggressive-product-get-job-done.html)
Maybe start out with the Power Finish with one of your cutting pads and see how that's working before jumping in there with the compound.
The could I just use the PC with the sealant and a red pad?
If it were me, especially in the learning phase with the rotary buffer, I would do the last machine polishing step with the DA to ensure there are no rotary buffer swirls in the paint but you can do the entire thing with just a rotary and then machine apply the wax.
:)
Mike Phillips
08-12-2011, 12:29 PM
From this thread,
Is it worth it to get the new Flex PE14-2-150? (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/33127-worth-get-new-flex-pe14-2-150-a.html)
Here's a re-write of an article I wrote about 3 years ago, I'm not finished with it yet so there's more to come but you might find some tips that will help you...
How to use a rotary buffer
There are a lot of different ways to approach working on any given car, usually you'll want to determine what you're working on, such as new paint, old paint, basecoat clearcoat or single stage paint. Then diagnose the condition of the paint and determine what it is you're going to try to correct, such as removing swirls, scratches, sanding marks, oxidation etc.,
After you have evaluated the paint you can then choose what you think will be the best products and pads for the job
Next you'll want to use the correct technique to apply the products and work them until you've removed all the defects you can to the best of your ability and within what's practical for the paint you're working on. Understand that some defects are too deep and you'll be better off and safer to learn to live with the deeper ones versus trying to remove them all the way and risk removing too much paint.
When you're first learning how to use a rotary buffer, it's a good idea to just tackle a single panel your first time. Considering you have to do the rotary buffer step and then after that a number of more steps until you get the paint up to the waxing step, just tackling a panel, like the hood of a car, is going to take some time to go from start to final wipe-off. So don't tackle an entire vehicle your first time out.
Also don't try to learn on something that's important to you, like a Black Viper, or whatever your pride and joy is, instead either work on an older car that no on will care if you make a mistake or spend a little time obtaining a hood off a car out of the wrecking yard.
Following the advice above, we recently worked on only one half of a panel, and from the time we started to the time we finished to clean, clay clean, polish and the wax and wipe-off took about one hour and that was just for one half of the hood. So start out slowly, and start out on something you can afford to make a mistake on. Then as you gain experience, skill and confidence, you'll be tackling entire cars in no time.
Here's what you do,
Gather your supplies
Get yourself a collection of wool and foam buffing pads, you'll also need some compounds and polishes formulated for use with rotary buffers, these are "Tools" for your tool chest.
You'll need plenty of clean, soft microfiber polishing cloths and a bonnet or two if you want to remove the wax by machine.
Misc Tools
Painters tape, tinfoil, Beach Towels, Bed sheets, Newspaper, Plastic Drop cloths, Plastic Bags... (Just some examples)
Work Clean
Always work clean, this means a clean car and a clean work environment. You don't want any dirt getting into any of the machine buffing processes as you will risk instilling swirls into the paint. Sweep the floor, this will prevent dirt and dust from being kicked into the air as you work around the car. You should at least start out clean, you're going to get dirty in the process.
Dress for success
Put some work clothes on including a soft cotton t-shirt that covers your waist line and you don't care if it gets splatter on it. Sometimes you'll find yourself leaning over a panel and your body touching the paint, have a soft cotton t-shirt to cover your pants so the waist of your paints, things like belt loops, snaps etc., don't come into contact with the paint, only the soft cotton t-shirt.
Also be careful so that you can avoid touch the paint by leaning on it but if you have to, then do everything you can not to instill any scratches. The bigger the car, the bigger the panel the better the odds you might have to "touch" the paint somewhere when you're leaning out to get the hard to reach areas. You can wear an apron but most of the time it's hard to find an apron that's as soft as an old cotton t-shirt.
Quote:
Knock out the top first
Here's a tip, if you think you're going to have to lean on the car to reach an area like the hood or roof, then knock out these areas first, from beginning to end and then tackle the side panels. This way you won't re-instill scuffs or scratches into panels that you've previously buffed.
I almost always knock out the roof on cars from the first step to the last step and then tackle the rest of the car.
Safety glasses are a good idea if you don't wear glasses. The rotary buffer does have a spinning head/pad on it and it could throw something into your eyeball.
Hearing protection is also a good idea as these machines are noisy. You probably don't need hearing protection for working on only one panel, but when you go to buff out an entire car you should have some type of ear protection.
Good shoes. Using the rotary buffer involves you legs, back, arms, shoulders, etc. You'll find that you'll use your legs/feet to anchor your stance while you control the machine. Again it's not that big of a deal if you're just working on just a singe panel but when the day comes and you start tackling entire cars, especially larger vehicles in bad condition where you're going to go around the vehicle 2-3 times with just the rotary buffer, if you don't have good shoes your feet and legs and even the rest of your body are going to pay a price as you work through the day. Something that encases your ankles like high-top tennis shoes work really well, (at least for me).
Prepare the car
Chose a car, wash it and then clay it if it needs it and only tackle one panel on one day to start with. Choose either the hood or the deck-lid, a horizontal panel.
Tip - Wash the day before
If possible, wash the vehicle the day before, that way it will be dry when you go to work on it. Rotary buffers can create an air current and pull water in body seams, cracks and crevices onto the panel as you're buffing.
Also, unless you or your customer has a Floor Lift, then if you can't bring the car up to you... you're going to need to lower yourself to the car in order to properly buff out the lower panels. You should be looking across from the panel as you buff on it, that means for the lower panels sitting your butt on the floor of the garage. It's a bad idea to try to buff out lower panels by bending over, this will stress your lower back. You can drop to one knee, or both knees, (have knee pads on), or use rolling stools, or milk crates, or foam cushion pads, whatever works for you but avoid bending over and running a rotary buffer.
Evaluate the condition of the finish
After washing and drying, inspect with your eyes and look to see what's wrong with the paint, does it have swirls and scratches. Is the finish horrific? As in really horribly swirls-out? Or just light swirls and scratches?
Use two kinds of light
It's a good idea to inspect the paint in at least two kinds of light, sunlight is very good at revealing swirls, florescent lights like many garages have are very good at revealing water spots, etchings and isolated deeper scratches and orange peel.
Use the least aggressive product to get the job done
With experience you can make a judgment call based upon the visual inspection of the paint you're about to work on to choose the appropriate product.
Synergistic Chemical Compatibility
In simple words, I tend to be a system guy, that is I will tend to use all products from a single manufacture using a system approach. Here's how this works...
The chemists that formulate the first step products, since they know what's in them, they are better able to formulate the follow-up or second step products so there's a synergistic chemical compatibility. Using one product designed to be used after the results of the previous product is a system approach.
If you're getting into using rotary buffers, then consider getting a collection of products from a single manufacture designed as a system approach for use with rotary buffers, this usually means products manufactured for the Professional side of this industry which includes products for body shops or the detailing industry. Here's a list of companies that offer system approaches for use with rotary buffers.
Menzerna
Pinnacle XMT
Optimum
Mothers
Meguiar's
Poorboys
3M
Perform a Test Spot
Map out a section on the car about 16" to 20" square or so and work the product against this area, apply a strip or bead of product about 6" to 8" long and pick up your bead using the 10 @ 10 Technique (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/circular-polishers-rotary-polishers-high-speed-polisher/29321-10-10-technique-picking-up-bead-product-rotary-buffer.html).
After you pick up your bead of product instantly hold the pad flat to trap the product between the face of the pad and the surface of the car and begin making slow, overlapping passes to the section. Like using a DA Polisher, you can make overlapping passes and go in two different directions to insure UMR, Uniform Material Removal. Work the buffer for about a minute, basically long enough to make two to three passes in two directions over this section. Don't buff to a dry buff.
Wipe of the excess residue and inspect.
Are the majority or all of the swirls and scratches gone? If yes you now know what product to use and how long to buff with it, as far as how to use the buffer that's going to come with practice. Start out working on the easy stuff, (large flat panels) and as you get more comfortable with the tool you can start tackling A-Pillars, B-Pillars, doors, fenders, etc.
If after you inspect the finish and most of the swirls and scratches are still there, then re-buff the area a second time, see of a second application of the same product using the same pad will get the job done, if not then it's likely you'll have to try a more aggressive product/pad combination.
In most cases, a medium aggressive polish and a polishing pad on a rotary buffer will at least remove the light or shallow defects and if this is the case then this could be an indicator that the paint is hard and/or the defects are deep but if you're just learning how to use the rotary buffer then it could also be that you're technique just isn't dialed-in enough for "you" to be effective with this combination. That will come with time and for now since you’re learning if you're seeing "better" results then when you started then continue over the rest of the panel.
As you gain experience, you can judge whether or not to start out with a wool cutting pad and a compound if the paint looks like it has a lot of deeper swirls, scratches and water spots. Balance the product and pad you use to the type of service you're offering and your customer is willing to pay for. See this article,
A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-make-money-detailing-cars/27827-few-tips-starting-part-time-detailing-business.html)
Before you continue however let's tape-off and cover up.
Tape-off and cover up
Even though the idea is to be very good at what you do so that you don't have splatter onto trim or into cracks and crevices, even the best can make these mistakes, so you need to make a judgment call as to whether you want to tape off and cover up trim, emblems, cracks and crevices or hard sharp body lines where the paint might be thin like the edge or corner edge of a hood.
The Beach Towel Tip (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/30894-beach-towel-tip.html)
Another trick to help you avoid splatter is to have plenty of pads on hand so that if the pad you're using becomes to wet with product you can simply switch to a clean dry pad. This tends to improve buffing performance and reduce the potential for any splatter. Generally speaking, more pads are better no matter what tool you're using.
The First Step Process – The Cutting or Cleaning Step
once you have your first step process figured out and you have taped-off or covered up anything you want to protect, continue to buff the panel you did your test spot on working each section of the panel equally. In most cases, you'll want to carve out sections of large panels and only buff sections or quadrants of the entire panel during the first step. Smaller panels can be buffed in one or two sections. As I always say...
"Let the panel be your guide"
The most important part of any detail job is the first cutting or cleaning step. It is this step that will determine your end-results. If you don't remove the defects in the first step, then you're going to be seeing them at the end of the job. So invest your time into the first step.
Work each quadrant of the panel you're working on carefully, thoroughly and sufficiently to equally remove enough paint over the entire section to remove the defects to the level you're comfortable with. Understand not all defects can be removed without the risk of removing too much paint and going through the clear on a clear coat paint job and exposing the color coat, or going through the color coat of a single stage paint job and exposing primer.
After working each section, wipe off and remove any excess product. Never apply fresh product to spent product it will dilute and adulterate the fresh product. Always work clean.
After you have worked each quadrant or section over the entire panel, then do what's called a few "Cover Passes", this is where you use the rotary buffer to now buff the entire panel to more or less tie all your work together, that is to give the finish a uniform, level surface with equality in appearance over the entire panel. In most cases the paint is going to have light swirls or haze after this step but that's okay as the next step will remove most of these.
The Second Step Process - The Polishing Step
At this step you can either make another pass using a less aggressive pad and product on the rotary buffer or you can try to move to a machine that oscillates instead of rotates for example the Porter Cable 7424XP, the Griot's Garage ROP, the Cyclo or the Flex 3401.
If your goal is a swirl free finish then you need to find out if the DA Polisher will remove any remaining swirls from your First Step Process or if you need to use a rotary buffer to remove these and then go to the dual action polisher. What determines what you have to do is usually the paint hardness or softness, i.e. polishabilty and of course your ability as a craftsman in the art of polishing paint. Polishability you can't control, but your skill level you can with experience.
At this point you could do another Test Spot, usually you would try to use the DA Polisher and a light cleaner/polish to see if you can remove any remaining swirls and produce a finish perfect for applying your choice of LSP to.
Another option is to only use the rotary buffer for all the correction steps and the final polishing steps but this takes a little practice and not all paints are able to be polished swirl-free using only a rotary buffer.
The only way to really tell is to buff out a horizontal panel like the hood or trunk lid, something you can look down on and then after making doing your last rotary buffer step, strip the paint by wiping with IPA, Mineral Spirits or washing it with a strong detergent wash and then move the car into bright, overhead sunlight. Bright sunlight is very good at revealing even the faintest tale-tale signs of rotary buffer trails also called holograms. If you don't do this kind of test, then how will you know if you truly left behind a 100% swirl free finish?
The problem with this kind of test is that it takes time to do, but if you have the time then go for it. Also, washing and/or wiping with any kind of solvent creates the potential for re-instilling swirls and scratches, just be aware of this as after your inspection you may have to re-polish the panel again.
Once you confirm you are able to create a 100% swirl free finish on the paint system you're buffing on using only a rotary buffer, then simply duplicate that procedure over the rest of the car and as long as no panel has been repaired and thus has different paint on it, then you should have uniform results over the entire car.
If you want to ensure you're not leaving behind any rotary buffer swirls or holograms, and you don't want to wash or strip the panel after buffing, then use a DA Polisher for the final finish polishing step.
By changing the action of the tool from direct drive rotating action to an oscillating action, you will ensure that you've removed any rotary buffer swirls. Of course, now you'll need to make sure you're not leaving any micro-marring, also called Tick Marks or DA Hazing. This is easy enough to check though as it will show up in a small area it's best to check for rotary buffer swirls over a larger panel or section of a panel.
Micro-marring can be avoided by using a high quality finishing polish wit a clean, soft foam finishing pads and then doing a Test Spot and then striping the test spot and inspecting using a Swirl Finder Light
After you decide upon a tool, pad and product to remove the remaining swirls and polish the surface to a smooth, high gloss, (take the paint to its maximum potential), then repeat the above steps of slicing each panel of the vehicle up into sections and working your product over each section thoroughly. Then wipe the entire panel clean and make some Cover Passes. Next wipe the panel clean for the next step.
The Third Step Process – The Protection or Waxing Step
Use your DA Polisher to apply the LSP of your choice usually using a finishing pad. Set your speed setting at around the 4.0 to 5.0 speed setting and apply your LSP over the entire panel making, slow, methodical passes. Try to go over each square inch 2-3 times to allow the oscillating foam pad to really do a good job of pushing the wax or paint sealant into all the microscopic surface imperfection, pockets and pores, hills and valleys, and interstices. Leave a thin, uniform layer over the entire surface.
If you're using a WOWO product then wipe it off immediately.
If you're using a product that needs to dry, then wait till the layer of product swipes clear before removing. Take a break while the wax or paint sealant dries so you're refreshed before wiping off the wax or paint sealant.
At this point in the process under the wax or paint sealant should be a show car finish or something very close to it, so you don't want to instill any swirls or scratches when you wipe the dried product off and besides using clean, soft microfiber towels, you want to be physically refreshed so you can be careful with your wiping actions. Buffing out an entire car using a rotary buffer is a lot of work and by the time you get to wiping the wax off you're going to be tired.
Swipe Test
After allowing the wax to fully dry for anywhere from 10 minutes to longer, how long depends upon temperature, humidity and how thin or thick your layer of wax is, but after some time has gone by test the wax to see if it's dry by performing the Swipe Test, that is to take your clean finger and give the waxed area a brisk swipe.
After you do this inspect the swiped area, it the wax is dry and ready to remove the swiped area will be clear and glossy. If so, the remove the wax. If the area you swiped is smeary, then wait for more time to go by and maybe evaluate how thick the coating of waxy you applied is, perhaps you applying your wax to thick and this is why it's taking a long time to fully dry? In most cases, in average temperatures and humidity, a coating of wax or paint sealant will fully dry in about 15 to 20 minutes. Always check the manufactures recommendations and follow these as the manufacture knows their product best.
Remove the wax
Once you determine the wax has fully dried, then remove the wax by hand or machine using a soft, clean microfiber polishing cloth.
De-Tape
Remove any tape or other items you used to cover and protect areas or components on the car.
Wipe down
Remove any remaining residue and inspect.
Sometimes moving the car into a different light setting will show you places with wax you missed. Sometimes getting another set of eyes to help you to inspect will help you to insure all wax and residue is removed.
Put your tools away... you're done for the day...
Summary...
When you're learning to use the rotary buffer, don't try to tackle an entire car in one day, just tackle a single panel, or even half of a single panel, and get some experience with the different pads and chemicals as well as how to hold and master the tool.
It's also a very good idea to never learn to use a rotary buffer on something that's important to you, like a Black Viper!
Find a less important car, something that no one will care if you make a mistake on or go to a salvage yard or a body shop and get a hood or trunk lid to practice on. Anchor it to a couple of saw horses or go to a PBE store and get an panel stand.
Of course there's more to learning how to use a rotary buffer but the above should provide you with a good starting point. Practice makes perfect. Experimenting with different types of pads and products with different techniques will enable you to hone your skills and find a system approach that works best for you.
:xyxthumbs:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.