Hack Verification?

[trekker]

Hello All,

I just wanted to bounce some pictures off of those who are more experienced I than am when it comes to correcting paint.

I have this 2001 Black Chrysler Sebring Lxi in my care for the next week or so. It's owned by a good family friend, and they're main focus is a thorough cleaning of the interior and the restoration of some trim pieces.

However, this car had been repainted approximately 6 weeks ago and was "buffed out" 1 week ago. When I went to go pick the car up with the owner, I didn't want to say anything about it's horrendous condition but it looked like someone proceeded to wash it with a dirty shop rag at some point in time. Not only that, the sun tells me this "buff out" looks like the method was far too aggressive and careless.

Check this out (keep in mind, this is relatively new paint)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2849-1.jpg (http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2849-1.jpg)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2850.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2848.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2847.jpg

The rest of the car suffers from basically the same thing to a slightly lesser degree.

So with my limited knowledge, this is what I see:

1.) Lots of swirls, which I believe were introduced through terrible washing technique after the car was polished?

2.) Long, straight and fine scratches. Considering the relative lack of orange peel on the hood in comparison to rest of the car, I'd say these are left over wet-sanding scratches?

3.) Buffer holograms or trails?

Now, I saw the car shortly after it was painted. It was not severely orange peeled, there was a fair amount but there was absolutely no defects in the paint even under the mid-day sun. So sometime between 5 weeks ago and now, it looks worse than a Black Oldsmobile Alero I did not too long ago. It's paint is 9 years old...

So what do you think I should tell the owner? He has a lot of respect for the person who painted the car, and apparently this painter contracts another guy out to do the buffing. After talking to this painter, I soon understood that his idea of washing a car is with a rag and dish soap. For the sake of not arguing with him, I just nodded and smiled but I think I may have been doing the owner a disservice by not pointing these things out.

I've corrected 1 vehicle before with a PCXP, Megs Ultimate Compound and Polish and I was very impressed with how it turned out considering they are OTC products. I still have lots of both, along with fresh orange and white pads. Do you think I should tell the owner, point somethings out and do a test spot to show him what black paint really looks like? Or is it too risky on a repaint that's 6 weeks old?

Feed back please

Any advice this wonderful community can provide would be great!

Thanks,

Ben

[master detailer]

no one lets there car be gone for 6 weeks to get a paint job. If he will not do it the wright way just move on. He will not last long doing work like that.

[Setec Astronomy]

It's possible the owner did that himself trying to keep his new paint job clean. IMO instead of getting into the he swirled/she swirled debate, just say that you noticed that the paint was "not at its full potential" and demonstrate what you would be able to do to it. Just at some point in the convo make sure you ask about wash techniques, because if the owner created those swirls, they'll be back the week after you polish.

IMO that paint should be cured enough for you to work on it, but I don't know what I'm talking about, so listen to Mike.

[rider9195]

Those swirls could either be from improper rotary use or improper washing as you mentioned. The idea of doing a test spot to show the difference is a great idea. Now I am not sure if it is okay to start polishing a recently painted surface or not. I know another member will have some input on that.

[Mike Phillips]

1.) Lots of swirls, which I believe were introduced through terrible washing technique after the car was polished?


Judging by the appearance you have

Swirls from horrible technique for anything and anytime anyone has "touched" the paint after it was painted. Could be washing, or wiping with a spray detailer.

The story of 3 H's - Horrendous, Horror Story and Hack Detailers... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/28142-story-3-h-s-horrendous-horror-story-hack-detailers.html)





2.) Long, straight and fine scratches. Considering the relative lack of orange peel on the hood in comparison to rest of the car, I'd say these are left over wet-sanding scratches?


These are called Tracers

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/22234-tracers-rids-pigtails-cobweb-swirls-rotary-buffer-swirls-holograms-water-spots-bird-droping-etchings-micro-marring.html)





3.) Buffer holograms or trails?


Guaranteed.





So what do you think I should tell the owner? He has a lot of respect for the person who painted the car, and apparently this painter contracts another guy out to do the buffing. After talking to this painter, I soon understood that his idea of washing a car is with a rag and dish soap. For the sake of not arguing with him, I just nodded and smiled but I think I may have been doing the owner a disservice by not pointing these things out.



You can hire the BEST painter alive on planet earth but it's the guy that does the wetsanding, cutting and buffing that makes or breaks the end-results.


Most of my friends that are truly great painters don't want anything to do with the wetsanding, cutting and buffing step because it's hard, dirty work and unless the person doing it "cares" about the quality of their work it's really easy to make a whoops...

It's the person that does the wet-sanding, cutting and buffing that makes or breaks the paint job (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/28707-s-person-does-wet-sanding-cutting-buffing-makes-breaks-paint-job-mike-phillips.html)





I've corrected 1 vehicle before with a PCXP, Megs Ultimate Compound and Polish and I was very impressed with how it turned out considering they are OTC products. I still have lots of both, along with fresh orange and white pads. Do you think I should tell the owner, point somethings out and do a test spot to show him what black paint really looks like? Or is it too risky on a repaint that's 6 weeks old?


Any advice this wonderful community can provide would be great!

Thanks,

Ben


Ben,

Definitely do a Test Spot and be sure to use a Tape-Line so everyone around can easily see the before-and-after difference which should be dramatic and shocking.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/medium/TapeLine02.jpg




Then find the painter and show him how his paint job was completely hacked-up with your before pictures and be sure to show him your after pictures.

[Mike Phillips]

It's possible the owner did that himself trying to keep his new paint job clean. IMO instead of getting into the he swirled/she swirled debate, just say that you noticed that the paint was "not at its full potential" and demonstrate what you would be able to do to it.



Great advice and a great example of how to take the high road. :xyxthumbs:




IMO that paint should be cured enough for you to work on it, but I don't know what I'm talking about, so listen to Mike.



You can usually start sanding and buffing on fresh paint after a few days... so by now it's completely safe to use a DA Polisher and a compound to undo the damage.


Fresh Paint - But you can touch it... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/28717-fresh-paint-but-you-can-touch.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[trekker]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Just the clarify the sequence of events to limit confusion:

The car was painted 6 weeks ago, after it was painted, the owner had possession of it up until it was "buffed". During this time it was lightly driven but I believe they (owners) were instructed to not wash it and I'm almost sure they never touched it. A week ago, it was brought in to this painter friend again to be buffed. This took a couple days, and then it was picked up again yesterday. That leads me to believe that most of this damage occurred over the few washes that may have taken place while it was in the person's responsible for correcting the paint possession.

Setec, that is great advice. I'm not interested in pointing fingers as to who has done the damage. I'd just like to educate the owner as to what a meticulously polished black car's potential is, and how far it currently is from that.

[Mike Phillips]

I could use some really good pictures of tracers if you can snap some under good lighting conditions. Taking pictures of defects in paint can be real tricky but if can that would be cool and I always give credit to the photographer if I use your pictures anywhere in my control.

I'm already looking forward to your success with this project.


IF you detail for money, part time or full time, this would be a great candidate car to showcase your talent. See this article,


Tips for using a discussion forum to reach more customers... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-make-money-detailing-cars/24041-tips-using-discussion-forum-reach-more-customers.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[trekker]

Thanks for the article links and clarification, Mike.

Given your advice on safely correcting new paint considering your extensive experience in paint correction, I'll assume there's a very good chance that the paint is safe to work on with a DA. If I obtain the owner's consent to do a test spot, I'll proceed with that later today.

Being sure to post pictures here afterwards, of course.

[trekker]

Alright, I've pointed the defects out to the owner and he's agreed to let me perform a test spot.

With much thanks to Deep Gloss Auto Salon and his thread here:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/24617-deep-gloss-jet-black-2010-bmw-m3-hacked.html

I was able to show the owner a good test spot and what black paint really looks like. :xyxthumbs:

Mike, I'm not sure that any of the following pictures are satisfactory examples of tracers. It is rather tough to capture what the human eye sees, even with a decent camera.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2852.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2867.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2854.jpg

I'd think that the last picture is the best I have so far. It's a fairly clear representation of what is described in your article. The tracers being the duller, grayer looking area on the right where you can see that they have been compounded out on the left. At least, I think that's what has taken place?

Just a couple more things of interest:

I found this on the rear portion of the car, just behind the rear driver's side window.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2860.jpg

I'm not sure what that's all about. In the picture, it might appear to be oxidation. However, in person it actually seems to be a different base color altogether. It seems to be a metallic base, but the flake it dispersed quite a bit more than it should be. I'll try to get a better video or picture up if I can.

Oh yes, and check out the trunk lid too!

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/pants1/Detailing/IMG_2859.jpg

Good times...

Thanks for the input so far, everyone!

[truckbutt]

Great thread. It answered questions I haven't had yet. Thanks to all.

[Mike Phillips]

Getting really good pictures of specific defects is a challenge.

For tracers, the best type of shot would be to capture them after you've removed all the swirls so the only defects in the paint are the straightline scratches.

No big deal... I can always create them on one of our black training hoods.


Good luck with the project!



:xyxthumbs:

[Y2KSVT]

I know you said you didn't want to point fingers, but someone needs to be called out for that work. If you produced equivalent work in whatever field you're in, you would agree that you wouldn't last long. I don't see why the guy buffing out cars should be held to a lesser standard. It'd burn me up if insurance covered the paint job and it came out looking like that, but it'd really try my patience if I paid good money to end up with those results.