Attn: CeeDog(Corey)...Opti-Coatings

[FUNX650]

Corey:

Beforehand, let it be known that, in regards to the Opti-Coatings (Opti-Gard & Opti-Coat 2.0), my concerns are truly genuine.

Also, I don't want to be deemed as being too impatient, but, as sometimes happen in the 'online-world', I didn't want these concerns to be "lost in the shuffle". (They were originally posted today, 07/14/2011, in another thread {ROMEO's}). I fully understand that in this thread your posting spoke/expressed: "generally on your opinion". But suffice it to say, your opinion and input is highly respected and appreciated by everyone. I am no exception. :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEE DOG
First, it depends on what level of finish you want to maintain but I'll try to speak generally on my opinion of the answer.
If you correctly wash and dry your vehicle and don't scratch it with anything more than occasional random very light micro marring of a towel then you can use poliseal and a foam finishing pad to amp up the gloss (remove that very light micro-marring) every year or so or as you feel it's needed. When you do this the important thing (and the point of the product if you listen to Dr. Davids reason for the invention of the product) is that you ARE NOT REMOVING CLEAR COAT. Eventually (depending on how often you polish, but if well taken care of it would take a very long time) you could polish through the layer of opti-coat and at that point you could add another layer of Opti-coat.


My Posting:

Corey: I'm really am looking for advise/guidance!!!

This is the causation of my confusion, or perhaps misunderstanding, of Opti-Gard/Opti-Coat (and maybe other "Coatings").

It has been stated that: The Opti-Coatings, when properly applied, are supppose to/will "etch", or, assimilating, as it were, into the paint's top-coat (the clearcoat); will properly cure within the allotted/recommended time frame through: cross-linking; will be a permanent coating similar to, but "harder" than paint clearcoat; that hardness will be (with a stated Moh's hardness) approaching 9H (corundum/emery) when cured; and nothing is supposed to remove said Coatings, save compounding with abrasives (a few others like paint thinners? have been mentioned, if I'm not mistaken, also).

Therefore, IMHO, if all of the above is factual, then micro-marring from: washing, drying, and even driving a vehicle [and what that entails (environmental issues)] should be a thing of the past. (I understand that incurring things like rock chips can happen).

But, it seems, that in real-world vehicle usage this is not so factual. As evidenced, micro-marring, swirls, and scratches do occur. Therefore the advise that is given: One is cautioned to use due diligence in their cleaning cycles; and, to "refresh" the Opti-Coatings (gloss-up, remove micro-marring, etc.) Poli-Seal may be used. ( Poli-Seal must be bada$$, then! ). Also, when one has polished/abraded through the Opti-Coatings, another application can be applied. My question: Since these coatings "etch" (assimilate) the clearcoat paint, how does one actually know where the Coatings end and the clearcoat begins? IMHO, without taking paint thickness readings before the Coating's application, and without doing more paint thickness readings at regular intervals, I don't see how it would be possible.

If you, {or others, such as, (Dr. G, Chris@Optimum)} would, please explain for me: How can these stark contrasts so co-exist?

Note: I'm not getting any younger; it's not as easy as it once was to 'detail' vehicles; and I'd like to have more of a "life" than continually going around and around and getting up and down to 'detail' said vehicles. As such, these coatings sound and look tempting.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Bob
__________________________________________________ ________

Once again, thanks for your assistance.......Bob

PS: No need to reply to these same concerns in the other (Romeo's) thread, unless you so desire. :) :)

[AeroCleanse]

I just applied Opti-Guard last night, so I'll keep an eye on it.

I have GTechniq C1 on my own car, and it does not scratch from normal driving / washing, etc.

[FUNX650]

I just applied Opti-Guard last night, so I'll keep an eye on it.

I have GTechniq C1 on my own car, and it does not scratch from normal driving / washing, etc.

Thanks for the input. I'll be on the lookout for any other info you make available in regards to these Coatings.

Bob

[CEE DOG]

Thanks very much Bob!

Let me first clarify what I was talking about and seperate my opinion from what Optimum specifically stated and then move to what you are talking about and try to do the same their.

Yes, most of what I said there was my opinion and interpretation of the real world.
The part that I was quoting from Dr. G said nothing with regards to the rest of what I said.

Here was what Dr. G said that I think deserves a lot of attention. I think most people including myself glossed over it the first time I read it. Later it clicked for me.

FYI: I added the bold to the quote below.




CEE DOG:

Thank you so much for your work on this innovative product and as always thank you for taking the time to answer my questions in such an insightful manner.

Dr G:

...... As a paint chemist, I was always puzzled why people over-polish their car paint and cause the paint to fail prematurely (we all have seen examples of clearcoat failure). Opti-Coat 2.0 is the most effective way to avoid premature failure of clearcoats.


Our research team spent over 4 years developing and testing Opti-Coat before it was released for professional use and another 3 years to develop Opti-Coat 2.0 for consumer use. This coating has better scratch and mar resistance, better UV resistance, and better chemical resistance than factory clears. Therefore the effects of the elements on Opti-Coat 2.0 is far less than factory clears and there will be much less need for polishing once this is applied on top of the existing clear. Even if you do remove Opti-Coat 2.0 by polishing, you can easily replace it by adding another coat.


Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thanks again.

Best Regards,
David,




From this thread: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/34883-review-extreme-testing-opti-coat-2-0-cquartz.html

Now, on to your question and point.

You are correct that not only Optimum but other coatings claim all kinds of scratch resistance. Many people take this to mean they are scratch proof which is not the case and wasn't claimed as far as I'm aware. I did some scratch testing with a scotchbrite type pad which was way over the top and in hindsight probably useless info at best. Later I compounded and polished that same panel and recoated it with the 2 coatings I've used. After a week I did a better scratch test with a dry multipurpose mf towel and a dry terry cloth. I didn't post that info because after further research I found that the total hardness of OC is not reached until near 3 months. This means that my test was conducted when from what I understand the hardness was nearer to a 6.5. Therefore I decided not to post it alone without the data from after 3 months. When I reach 3 months I'm going to test again and then will have more than just an opinion. I'm also following the coatings on my cars as these should actually be better indicators of picking up on fine wash induced micro marring if there is any.

In short the coatings are not scratch proof but they are "scratch resistant".

How "scratch resistant"? I don't know. My logical thought is that they are more scratch resistant than soft paints. Are they more scratch resistant than all paints? I can't say that but I do know nothing is scratch proof.

Chad (Rasky) made a very interesting (to me) observation a week or so ago in a PM. He said to me that the fact these coatings allow dirt and contaminents to be released much easier is in itself helpful to resisting scratching.

In regards to removing light micro marring with the poliseal and a foam finishing pad that was just my assumption and is NOT based in any testing yet. Here is what Dr. G said in regards to my question about using poli-seal.




7.-I understand using Optimum Poliseal with a foam-finishing pad is the acceptable method of cleaning the coating down the road. Is this correct?

Yes, you can use Poli-Seal by hand or with a foam finishing pad to clean Opti-Coat or to add additional gloss.


Later Chris added that we could use poliseal to remove high spots if by chance we happened to leave it on too long and let it cure high.

So based on that info I am assuming I can use poliseal to remove very fine wash induced micro scratches. I have NOT tried that but I am assuming.

Of course if the "micro scratch" was not so "micro" and was indeed deep enough to reach through the OC coating then I could not remove it without removing the OC. (I know you know that but I'm adding it in case someone doesn't)

As far as knowing when to reapply if you do by chance polish through your OC coating: I would think the only way to know would be when you notice a substantial difference in the way the water reacts to the OC (or lack there of) Here I want to be careful about what I'm saying becasue there is so much assumption as well as the fact that this portion of the discussion is probably violating the whole point of OC. Optimum didn't intend for us to be polishing it all the time. And I think thats for good reason. I do find and believe that with OC on the paint you will maintain a glossy appearance more easily than without a coating. If you take good care of the paint and hit it with poliseal once a year I think the vast majority of people will be thrilled with the shine that is maintained.

Edit: If we don't see Chris weigh in I'll send this to Dr. G tonight and allow him to further educate us and clear up any assumptions I might have wrong.

[Jons6.7]

Subscribed,

[Chris Thomas]

Corey left little for me to add. Opti Coat and Opti Guard attached to paint via a covalent bond unlike waxes and sealants which cross-link by hydrogen bonding. A covalent bond is 20+ times stronger than the later and is why it cannot be broken chemically with cleaners, like waxes, sealants, etc. can be.

Poliseal is a chemical cleaner with only mild abrasives. It can be used for years to clean and remove minor swirling without compromising the coating if application was performed properly. To fully remove the coating, you need to use a compound or an aggressive polish.

You can tell if a panel/area is coated/uncoated by testing the hydrophobic properties after a degreasing wash. Normal LSP's will be gone and not bead after a strong wash breaks the bonding...but they will not affect the coatings.

[FUNX650]

Thanks very much Bob!

Let me first clarify what I was talking about and seperate my opinion from what Optimum specifically stated and then move to what you are talking about and try to do the same their.

Yes, most of what I said there was my opinion and interpretation of the real world.
The part that I was quoting from Dr. G said nothing with regards to the rest of what I said.

Here was what Dr. G said that I think deserves a lot of attention. I think most people including myself glossed over it the first time I read it. Later it clicked for me.

FYI: I added the bold to the quote below.




From this thread: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/34883-review-extreme-testing-opti-coat-2-0-cquartz.html

Now, on to your question and point.

You are correct that not only Optimum but other coatings claim all kinds of scratch resistance. Many people take this to mean they are scratch proof which is not the case and wasn't claimed as far as I'm aware. I did some scratch testing with a scotchbrite type pad which was way over the top and in hindsight probably useless info at best. Later I compounded and polished that same panel and recoated it with the 2 coatings I've used. After a week I did a better scratch test with a dry multipurpose mf towel and a dry terry cloth. I didn't post that info because after further research I found that the total hardness of OC is not reached until near 3 months. This means that my test was conducted when from what I understand the hardness was nearer to a 6.5. Therefore I decided not to post it alone without the data from after 3 months. When I reach 3 months I'm going to test again and then will have more than just an opinion. I'm also following the coatings on my cars as these should actually be better indicators of picking up on fine wash induced micro marring if there is any.

In short the coatings are not scratch proof but they are "scratch resistant".

How "scratch resistant"? I don't know. My logical thought is that they are more scratch resistant than soft paints. Are they more scratch resistant than all paints? I can't say that but I do know nothing is scratch proof.

Chad (Rasky) made a very interesting (to me) observation a week or so ago in a PM. He said to me that the fact these coatings allow dirt and contaminents to be released much easier is in itself helpful to resisting scratching.

In regards to removing light micro marring with the poliseal and a foam finishing pad that was just my assumption and is NOT based in any testing yet. Here is what Dr. G said in regards to my question about using poli-seal.



Later Chris added that we could use poliseal to remove high spots if by chance we happened to leave it on too long and let it cure high.

So based on that info I am assuming I can use poliseal to remove very fine wash induced micro scratches. I have NOT tried that but I am assuming.

Of course if the "micro scratch" was not so "micro" and was indeed deep enough to reach through the OC coating then I could not remove it without removing the OC. (I know you know that but I'm adding it in case someone doesn't)

As far as knowing when to reapply if you do by chance polish through your OC coating: I would think the only way to know would be when you notice a substantial difference in the way the water reacts to the OC (or lack there of) Here I want to be careful about what I'm saying becasue there is so much assumption as well as the fact that this portion of the discussion is probably violating the whole point of OC. Optimum didn't intend for us to be polishing it all the time. And I think thats for good reason. I do find and believe that with OC on the paint you will maintain a glossy appearance more easily than without a coating. If you take good care of the paint and hit it with poliseal once a year I think the vast majority of people will be thrilled with the shine that is maintained.

Edit: If we don't see Chris weigh in I'll send this to Dr. G tonight and allow him to further educate us and clear up any assumptions I might have wrong.

Corey: Thank you so very much for replying.

Once again your insight, along with posting the testing you have done with these coatings, and reminders of Optimum Technologies statements, has enlightned everyone (Me too).

I too feel that the difference between "scratch-proof and scratch-resistant" must be kept in mind in regards to Coatings or even other LSPs. Also, careful and intense "readings" from the good Dr. G should be foremost, front-and-center, to garner more knowledge of the technology and care involved in these Coatings.

Preservation of the precious, so very thin, top-coating of clearcoat is paramount for me! That, and....

.....As you know, I expressed my desire for less trips around vehicles to 'detail' them. So, in my estimation, and even if the Opti-Coatings (or other's coatings) are not "bullet-proof", then, IMHO, their applications would seem the best way to acheive this goal. As many others have expressed, this may just be that other step in the quest for the Holy Graille!!

Thanks again, my kind sir, for a most helpful posting!!! :)

Bob

[FUNX650]

Corey left little for me to add. Opti Coat and Opti Guard attached to paint via a covalent bond unlike waxes and sealants which cross-link by hydrogen bonding. A covalent bond is 20+ times stronger than the later and is why it cannot be broken chemically with cleaners, like waxes, sealants, etc. can be.

Poliseal is a chemical cleaner with only mild abrasives. It can be used for years to clean and remove minor swirling without compromising the coating if application was performed properly. To fully remove the coating, you need to use a compound or an aggressive polish.

You can tell if a panel/area is coated/uncoated by testing the hydrophobic properties after a degreasing wash. Normal LSP's will be gone and not bead after a strong wash breaks the bonding...but they will not affect the coatings.

Thanks Chris for your response.

Your explanation between covalent bonding of Opti-Coatings and the hydrogen bonding of waxes/sealants is most helpful. In an earlier posting I expressed that, even if Opti-Coatings ( or other's Coatings) are not bullet-proof, these seem to be the way to go for less "trips around the car"....less abrading, that is. IMHO, Preservation of the clearcoat is foremost!

Thanks again,

Bob

[slimnib]

Thanks very much Bob!

Let me first clarify what I was talking about and seperate my opinion from what Optimum specifically stated and then move to what you are talking about and try to do the same their.

Yes, most of what I said there was my opinion and interpretation of the real world.
The part that I was quoting from Dr. G said nothing with regards to the rest of what I said.

Here was what Dr. G said that I think deserves a lot of attention. I think most people including myself glossed over it the first time I read it. Later it clicked for me.

FYI: I added the bold to the quote below.




From this thread: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/34883-review-extreme-testing-opti-coat-2-0-cquartz.html

Now, on to your question and point.

You are correct that not only Optimum but other coatings claim all kinds of scratch resistance. Many people take this to mean they are scratch proof which is not the case and wasn't claimed as far as I'm aware. I did some scratch testing with a scotchbrite type pad which was way over the top and in hindsight probably useless info at best. Later I compounded and polished that same panel and recoated it with the 2 coatings I've used. After a week I did a better scratch test with a dry multipurpose mf towel and a dry terry cloth. I didn't post that info because after further research I found that the total hardness of OC is not reached until near 3 months. This means that my test was conducted when from what I understand the hardness was nearer to a 6.5. Therefore I decided not to post it alone without the data from after 3 months. When I reach 3 months I'm going to test again and then will have more than just an opinion. I'm also following the coatings on my cars as these should actually be better indicators of picking up on fine wash induced micro marring if there is any.

In short the coatings are not scratch proof but they are "scratch resistant".

How "scratch resistant"? I don't know. My logical thought is that they are more scratch resistant than soft paints. Are they more scratch resistant than all paints? I can't say that but I do know nothing is scratch proof.

Chad (Rasky) made a very interesting (to me) observation a week or so ago in a PM. He said to me that the fact these coatings allow dirt and contaminents to be released much easier is in itself helpful to resisting scratching.

In regards to removing light micro marring with the poliseal and a foam finishing pad that was just my assumption and is NOT based in any testing yet. Here is what Dr. G said in regards to my question about using poli-seal.



Later Chris added that we could use poliseal to remove high spots if by chance we happened to leave it on too long and let it cure high.

So based on that info I am assuming I can use poliseal to remove very fine wash induced micro scratches. I have NOT tried that but I am assuming.

Of course if the "micro scratch" was not so "micro" and was indeed deep enough to reach through the OC coating then I could not remove it without removing the OC. (I know you know that but I'm adding it in case someone doesn't)

As far as knowing when to reapply if you do by chance polish through your OC coating: I would think the only way to know would be when you notice a substantial difference in the way the water reacts to the OC (or lack there of) Here I want to be careful about what I'm saying becasue there is so much assumption as well as the fact that this portion of the discussion is probably violating the whole point of OC. Optimum didn't intend for us to be polishing it all the time. And I think thats for good reason. I do find and believe that with OC on the paint you will maintain a glossy appearance more easily than without a coating. If you take good care of the paint and hit it with poliseal once a year I think the vast majority of people will be thrilled with the shine that is maintained.

Edit: If we don't see Chris weigh in I'll send this to Dr. G tonight and allow him to further educate us and clear up any assumptions I might have wrong.



With all due respect to the member this great forum. Based on my life experience with respect most products manufactured in this world, the makers claim as to performance ( especally with so call wonder products) do not stand up. These products may be very fine coating, but two years or more?

I find it very hard to believe the claims made with respect to this new products.

Please get back to us in a year.

[AeroCleanse]

There are videos that show the coating after more than 2 years. One on youtube is listed as something like Optimum Product X

[slimnib]

There are videos that show the coating after more than 2 years. One on youtube is listed as something like Optimum Product X

Videos, you must be kidding, ever hear of Adobe.
Let me know when its your car.

[CEE DOG]

Thanks for your post and skepticism. In todays age Its fair to feel that way unless you've seen proof otherwise or you have learned to trust the character of someone making a claim.

I'll be happy to let you know in two years but you can go look at David Fermanis thread now. He has been washing that car with dawn for a very long time now. Its got to be going on two years I would think.... I am not someone who jumps on a product based on claims. This product has plenty of proof in the pudding when it comes to the durability claim. It has been tested and proven to last longer than two years. In fact for the professionally installed OG I believe a warranty to last as long as the paint or something to that affect is offered.

[AeroCleanse]

Videos, you must be kidding, ever hear of Adobe.
Let me know when its your car.

There are people that have had it on for more than 2 years. That video I told you about was uploaded in 2008. Why don't you go ask the uploader.

[CEE DOG]

Corey: Thank you so very much for replying.
Bob
Bob, thanks so much for this thread and all your thoughts on this. I think it will aid a lot of people in their quest for knowledge on the subject.

[FUNX650]

Bob, thanks so much for this thread and all your thoughts on this. I think it will aid a lot of people in their quest for knowledge on the subject.

And many thanks to you, Corey, for your time and effort towards gathering and sharing this input/info. I really appreciate it!

Also...Thanks to Chris@Optimum, Dr.G, Rasky, David Fermani, Richy, and all the others who have contributed info on the subject of Coatings.

One of the other reasons for my thread on Opti-Coatings:

After being bombarded over the years with claims of the "next/new miracle products" (ex: think of dealerships offering to put on your vehicle the "never have to wax your car again" products), sometimes it's hard to except that there are products that will live up to what they profess to be. Perhaps these Coatings will be of such nature. And I surely do hope this is true.

Everyone enjoy the upcoming weekend with family and friends.

Bob