First to Fight...umm Try?

[DevildawgJJ]

So I've started polishing my car for the first time today....and not pleased with the results. I have horrible type II water spots and minor scratches and swirls.

Pic 2065 is before (not the best pic) and 2061 is after using UC (orange pad) 2x sectional passes (total of 12) and UP (white pad) 1x. The reminents of the water spots are the rings....It almost look like my car had a bad case of "ring worm."

I washed and clayed it last night, and noticed I could feel the water spots, but had a smooth finish to it. Now, that section has a gloss,without the dullness of water haze, and rings left over.

Should I make a couple of more passes at? I don't have anything less 'agressive' than an orange pad at this time. How should I apporach this?

[kronos]

... Should I make a couple of more passes at?

Short answer, definitely! If you don't have a more aggressive polish/compound and or pad, then yes, do a another pass and another until you're satisfied with the correction. The only concern I would have is striking through the clear. Unfortunately the only way to tell how much clear you have left is by using a paint meter and unless you have one, you may have to settle with living with those waterspots or risk going through the clear.



I don't have anything less 'agressive' than an orange pad at this time. How should I apporach this?[/SIZE][/FONT]

You would need something more aggressive than an orange pad, but more likely a more aggressive compound. UC can get it done, but it looks like you'll need to do a few more passes. If you haven't done so already, draw a straight line from the center of the backing plate to the edge to visualize the spinning backing plate. If the pad only "jiggles", it will not correct as well as it's supposed to. Also use speed 6, 5.5" pads or smaller and reduce your working area. That should help you tackle those stubborn waterspots more efficiently.

[embolism]

what kind of pads do you have? Hopefully they are flat 5.5 inch

prime the pad and then use 3 pea sized drops of UC around the outer third of the pad. Work a 2 foot x 2 foot area and do 4 heavy passes at 10 lbs of pressure on the head of the machine (make sure the pad is spinning though), then a couple light passes with just the weight of the machine.

Some ppl have had pad failure using speed 6 b/c of heat buildup. just be aware of it so you don't destroy the adhesive on your pad. I've never gone past speed 5 on my GG..

sometimes waterspots are so bad that unless you wetsand, you can't get them out so best to live with them or take to a professional.

[DevildawgJJ]

I am using the 5.5 pads. I did bump my PC up to 6 for the 2 attemt and same results. I do have a line on my back plate, it is turning but to no avail.

Should I use another compound? Don't know where I could get a more aggressive compound in store? What do you recommend?

Thanks!

[embolism]

not sure but maybe you can get DA version of M105 over the counter at autozone or pepboys...

[DevildawgJJ]

Ok, Just spent four hours on the front 1/3 of my car...:nomore:

A couple of questions: I noticed that using the UC after a few cycles, little particles of the compound were flaking in every direction. Is this normal, or is my pad to dry from usage and need to wash/use a new one?

After I applied the UP it was hard as hell to wipe off the polish. I am using a micro fiber towel, but had to apply a sh*t-ton of pressure to rub off. It got to the point where I used the Mothers Showtime Detailer to help facilitate removing the polish. Should I have done that?

That rust spont on the top side of my car....how should I approach that?

And lastly, are pads supposed to look like this after usage? The water spots are still there, even after multiple attemps and the polish :rolleyes:. I will pick-up some M105 and try to see if that works. I am going to hold off on the liquid wax until my spots are gone...

Any thoughts?

[kronos]

I am using the 5.5 pads. I did bump my PC up to 6 for the 2 attemt and same results. I do have a line on my back plate, it is turning but to no avail.

Sounds like you're using good technique. The PC already puts about 5 pounds of downward force on the pad, Mike Phillips recommends 15 to 20 lbs of TOTAL downward force, so try to increase your downward force if you're not doing that yet. Reduce your work area down to 18"x18" and compound it again.



Should I use another compound? Don't know where I could get a more aggressive compound in store? What do you recommend?

Thanks!

I contacted Meguiar's (they're located in Irvine, CA) about finding M105 locally. They gave me a list of local paint shops that carry it and were able to sell them directly to me, but at a considerable markup over Autogeek's price. I no longer have that list, but you can try calling them for the same information. M105 is their best compound, but can have a steep learning curve for first time users.



One of our members, who goes by username "Richy", sometimes recommends a waterspot removing chemical, but I don't recall in what instances he does so or what that chemical is. Shoot him a PM, he may be able to help you out.

[bobble]

Where are you in SoCal? I have some M105 you can use if that helps and then if you like it you can buy some. Yes it's the DA version as well.

[kronos]

A couple of questions: I noticed that using the UC after a few cycles, little particles of the compound were flaking in every direction. Is this normal, or is my pad to dry from usage and need to wash/use a new one? After I applied the UP it was hard as hell to wipe off the polish. I am using a micro fiber towel, but had to apply a sh*t-ton of pressure to rub off. It got to the point where I used the Mothers Showtime Detailer to help facilitate removing the polish. Should I have done that?

It sounds like maybe you're overworking UC. Each section you work with UC should have roughly 4 to 6 working passes total and the pad does look a little ragged. Try switching to a clean pad or clean that pad with a nylon brush and cotton terry towels. A must read by Mike Phillips: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/28755-why-s-important-clean-your-pads-often.html



And lastly, are pads supposed to look like this after usage? The water spots are still there, even after multiple attemps and the polish :rolleyes:. I will pick-up some M105 and try to see if that works. I am going to hold off on the liquid wax until my spots are gone...

The pads look tattered. :laughing: Did you clay before polishing? Now that you've worked those areas well, there shouldn't be any minerals that caused those spots. It's ok to put wax over them, they'll no longer cause any damage. What you're looking at now is etching. Here's a must read about waterspots from Mike Phillips: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/33499-3-types-water-spots-type-i-type-ii-type-iii.html

[jamores23]

try vinegar on them!

[Old Tiger]

For a beginner get the Megs DA MF cutting and finishing pads or better yet, the whole system. Nothing corrects as well on a DA IMO!

[DevildawgJJ]

try vinegar on them!

I did.....and they just laughed back at me :surrender:

Where are you in SoCal? I have some M105 you can use if that helps and then if you like it you can buy some. Yes it's the DA version as well.

Riverside County....Thanks for the offer! I think I will buy some on-line from here for future endevors.




Did you clay before polishing? Now that you've worked those areas well, there shouldn't be any minerals that caused those spots. It's ok to put wax over them, they'll no longer cause any damage. What you're looking at now is etching.

I did clay, and after, I felt every water "etching" by hand. If fact, I still fell the rings by hand after I UC'd and polished.

[Mike Phillips]

Just read through this entire thread, you've recieved a lot of good troubleshooting advice.

Ultimate Compound is actually very aggressive, used with a foam cutting pad, a Surbuf pad or a Microfiber pad it's capbable of some very amazing correction.

kronos suggested a couple of things that I keyed in on that are important...

Anytime you're having problems removing defects, try working a smaller section. It's really easy to creep out and start buffig a fairly large section and for easy to buff paint with shallow defects this will work, but when you run into problems one way to troubleshoot is to try working a smaller section. I think I list why in this thread,

Tips for working in warm/hot weather or direct sunlight (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tips-techniques-how-articles-interacting-discussion-forums/26961-tips-working-warm-hot-weather-direct-sunlight.html)


Clean your pad often.

If you're seeing little flakes or crumbs of product flying off while you're buffing then chances are good your pad is caked-up wit h


Removed paint - If you're abrading the surface you're removing paint and guess where it goes?
Spent product - This is used-up product
Remove theses things with a nylon brush or using a terry cloth towel like I show in the article, how to clean your pad on the fly. You can find it in my article list under Pad Cleaning.


If you're in SoCal, go to one of the Meguiar's Detailing Classes or TNOG's, (Thursday Night Open Garage), and let Mike Stoops or Mike Pennington take a look at your technique and see if it needs any tweaking. Tell them I said 'hi"

Or fly out here for our next set of classes, I guarantee you'll have a great time.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVqnrjHB6Eg&hd=1]YouTube - ‪How To Remove Swirls and Water Spots 1962 Cadillac Extreme Makeover‬‏[/video]





:)

[Mike Phillips]

I did.....and they just laughed back at me :surrender:



This is just an excerpt from the below article...


Tips for removing Type I Water Spots (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/36306-tips-removing-type-i-water-spots.html)

How Vinegar Works - (If and when it works)
Common cooking vinegar or food grade vinegar is a weak form of acetic acid, which is has low pH. Mineral deposits are just that, minerals that are either dissolved in water or embodied in water and when the water evaporates it leaves the physical mineral behind on the surface.

There are different types of minerals in water but one of the most common is Calcium Hydroxide. Calcium Hydroxide has a high pH, if the mineral deposits on your car's paint are Calcium Hydroxide, then the low pH Acetic Acid in the Vinegar will act to neutralize the high pH of the Calcium Hydroxide and either dissolve the minerals or break their bond to the paint and at that point you would be able to wipe them off the surface.

If the hard water spots are some other type of mineral deposits, then there's a good chance the acetic acid in the vinegar will have no effect and in a worse case scenario cause more harm than good. This is why in the forum world you'll often read accounts from some people where they share how great vinegar worked for them in their situation but then you'll read accounts by other people where the vinegar had no effect.

The problem with using Vinegar is that the acetic acid will act to remove any wax or paint sealant previously applied to the paint, wiping a waxed finish with vinegar certainly won't add more protection and what's the opposite of adding?

The other problem with using vinegar is that in and of itself it doesn't provide any extra lubricating ability outside of being a liquid. So using it with some type of cloth, for example a microfiber towel will not be as gentle as using a product formulated by a chemist specifically to be wiped over polished finish. And if fact if there are physical minerals on the surface then wiping them off without some type of added lubricity could in fact lead to scratching of the finish.

The two products show above, Duragloss 505 and Meguiar's M47 are manufactured by reputable companies and I'm confident the chemists have taken into account everything involved with creating a product for Joe Consumer to potentially wipe a clear coated finish to remove mineral deposits.

Remember clear coat paints are scratch-sensitive, that is they scratch easily. I think it's safe to assume that any product created by a reputable company for wiping off mineral deposits will include both lubricating agents plus glossing agents along with their proprietary ingredients for forcing the minerals to release their bond to the surface.

Key Benefits
The lubricating agents help prevent potential scratching from the minerals on the surface and the glossing agents restore a just detailed look to the finish.

These two included features to the products are important to car owners even thought most car owners probably don't even know they want and need these benefits from the product.

Vinegar offers neither of these benefits.


My recommendation
If you find you have what I call Type I Water Spots, that is what the world generically refers to as Hard Water Spots or Mineral Deposits, then obtain one of the two products listed in this article, especially if the spotting is an ongoing problem and give them a try. Other safe options would be to try a spray detailer, (at least it offers lubricating and glossing features), or try washing the car using a high lubricity car wash.

If you do opt to try vinegar, test first to a small area. Dampen a clean, soft microfiber towel with vinegar, place it on the affected area and allow it to remain for a few seconds so it can soften and hopefully dissolve the mineral deposits, then gently wipe the surface. This would be a safer approach then wiping dry paint with dry mineral deposits bonded to the surface.



Important
If you use vinegar to remove water spots, plan on re-applying some type of wax or paint sealant afterwards to restore any protection removed from the acetic acid.

[Mike Phillips]

Also... with all the work you've done so far... it's only to your Test Spot or Test Spots correct?


You haven't buffed out the entire car only to find out what you're doing isn't working?


Did you use a tape-line to help you measure your results?


:)