Need help with polishing white car

[Temjin]

Hi guys,

Finally started working on my white car yesterday but have been stuck since on the polishing part as it was a lot more difficult and time consuming that I originally anticipated.

My ultimate aim is to get the surface "perfect" enough to apply the Opti-Coat 2 protection so I will never have to do another deep paint correction for a long time. (at least not for another 2-3 years)

The car is a Hyundai i30 2009 White, and the condition of the paint is fairly good with mostly light swirls and occasion deeper ones.

I've already did a good job (I think anyway) at preparing the surface. Full deep care and a good spray with the CarPro Iron X and then quite a comprehensive claying. These steps took me at least 3 hours, with claying consuming the most. There were still a bit of "unknown dark stuff" still stuck at the bottom of the car. I don't know what they are, but both carpro iron x and lots of claying don't seem to remove them. (I gave up then lol)

Now on the polishing.

I'm using a Concourse random orbital polisher, with orange and white LC pads.

At first, I tried the white pad with Chemical guy's pro polish, after a few section passes on max setting, I check for finish but still find the deeper scratches and those random "marks" are still visible. Light swirls were not completely gone either.

I did a few more passes, but still couldn't see any differences.

Then I switched to an orange pad and try again. Now I manage to see some differences but the surface just isn't perfect. If I look deep and hard enough, swirls were still visible.

I then used the aggressive Menzerna's Power Gloss on the orange pad and went crazy on it, but still I cannot remove all the swirls completely.

Being a newbie, I thought, is it even possible to get a perfect finish on a WHITE surface car? I mean, the car is fairly new and from a distance, (pre-polish), it has more shine than most other white cars on the road.

I almost given up on this because I've spent 1.5 hour and couldn't even get half of the bonnet done to what I want.

Questions

- Should I use a more aggressive compound?
- How "much" product do I really need to use anyway? I'm afraid I've used too much of it, but couldn't tell. I did condition the pad first with quite a bit of product, then add more to it before polishing.
- Is it even possible to get a surface to perfect gloss with nil scratches? Maybe I'm asking for too much. I've just checked the surface again and found alot of very very minor swirls, probably due to the aggressive polishing I've did?

I never knew it would be this hard.. :(

P.S: Sorry, no photos yet as my camera is not with me.

[master detailer]

you need to use a rotory buffer 1200 rpm with w wool pad to get it the way you want it. also you may need to wet sand it. go lower on the grit of the comp.

[Dr Oldz]

you need to use a rotory buffer 1200 rpm with w wool pad to get it the way you want it. also you may need to wet sand it. go lower on the grit of the comp.


This gentleman is just learning how to use a polisher and you are suggesting him wetsanding. BOOOOOOOOO!


To the OP. I am not knowledgeable of that polisher....so lets start there. Is similar to the Porter Cable listed here at Autogeek? Any info on this polisher may help!

[Temjin]

Hi Dr Oldz, the polisher was brought in Australia. Waxit - Premium Car Care Products (http://waxit.com.au/proddetail.asp?prod=DAP900&cat=22)

Obviously, I couldn't order any of the one in autogeek due to voltage differences. (or I could, but the step up transformer will make it too expensive)

And yes, no way I would touch rotary buffer right now.

Ok, let's start from square one. I have the following items.

- Lake Country CCS Pads, 2 x Orange, 2 x White, 1 x Blue and 1 x Gold.
- The polisher
- Chemical guys's Pro Polish
- The Official Menzerna 250ml Sampler Pack - Enthusist
Power Gloss - S34A - Cutting Compound
Power Finish - 203S - Medium Abrasive Polish
Finial Finish - 85RD - Super Light Finishing Polish
Sealing Wax - 60 - Cleaner and Finishing Wax

There is a guide on the polisher as well, d/l from here. http://www.waxit.com.au/library/concours900userguide.pdf

On section 2.2, it recommended to use the white pad and power gross for deeper swirls and scratches, which I don't even think my paint is suffering from it. At least not extensively since the car is fairly new and the only obvious defects from "not too close" is minor swirls.

I've tried the next level up, orange pad and power gross, but can't seem to get the perfect result I want. My suspicions is now I may be creating more swirls from the result of compounding. However, my research shows me Lake CCS Orange pads shouldn't create more swirls even from compounding. (reading from this post, http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/35607-advice-removing-heavy-scratch-marks.html, in fact, I may be suffering the same problem)

So it's either that, or I need to rethink my polishing method.

My biggest unknown is the amount of product I need to use. When will the product actually start to "polish" the surface, and when it is dried out for refill. How hard to push the polisher in. All of these, I don't know with real certainty.

Again, I did condition the pads first, and then add a few more drops around, then spread the product over the surface and then typical section passes on high speed setting.

I am still seeing those "really tiny holes" left by the iron dusts and other containment I have removed from the previous steps. (claying and car pro iron x) Wonder if those are removable in the first place without cutting too deep into the coat.

Another question, how long does it usually take to do 1/4 of a bonnet on a medium size car anyway?

Thanks again.

[Temjin]

Oh another point, I check for finish by spraying Methylated Spirit on the surface and wipe with a MS cloth. I am not sure this usually "clean" the surface too well that all the really tiny swirls are showing which tends to not get polished and only filled by a glaze or wax/sealant or other finishing step.

I really want to get on to the Opti-Coat 2.0 part as soon as possible. If it fills those very minor swirls, then I'm ok with it.

[Dr Oldz]

The polisher looks like it will get the job done!

Try these out and they will answer a lot of your questions!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-car-garage-how-videos/24074-show-car-garage-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-polishing-da-polisher.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/35292-how-prime-foam-pad-when-using-da-polisher.html

Make sure you are working on a small area. 2 foot by 2 foot max. If you are using power gloss, you will need to use a follow up polish to refine the surface and bring back that high gloss!

Really tiny holes?? a pic may help here.

See what you learn from those videos and feel free to ask more questions afterwards.

[Dr Oldz]

Oh another point, I check for finish by spraying Methylated Spirit on the surface and wipe with a MS cloth. I am not sure this usually "clean" the surface too well that all the really tiny swirls are showing which tends to not get polished and only filled by a glaze or wax/sealant or other finishing step.

I really want to get on to the Opti-Coat 2.0 part as soon as possible. If it fills those very minor swirls, then I'm ok with it.


I don't know what Methylated Spirits are, but I do know Optimum tells you to use an IPA wipedown b4 applying OC 2.0. OC will NOT fill those tiny scratches in. They will need to be removed from the polishing steps.

[Temjin]

Thanks Dr Oldz. I've read through a lot of articles from Mike before starting the work, including the ones you've linked. :)

2 foot by 2 foot, isn't that a bit big? That's 60 cm x 60 cm, ok, larger than I originally thought and larger than the areas I've worked on.

I made a mistake with using Methylated Spirit. I confused it with the Mineral Spirit that Mike also recommended in his other article on diluting IPA. We don't have an exact mineral spirit here..so maybe I will just stick with IPA diluted solution instead. (damn, hope I didn't damage the surface with those methylated spirit lol)

I will try to get pictures once I get hold of my camera. It is difficult to explain without pics.

Thanks again.

[Dr Oldz]

Thanks Dr Oldz. I've read through a lot of articles from Mike before starting the work, including the ones you've linked. :)

2 foot by 2 foot, isn't that a bit big? That's 60 cm x 60 cm, ok, larger than I originally thought and larger than the areas I've worked on.

I made a mistake with using Methylated Spirit. I confused it with the Mineral Spirit that Mike also recommended in his other article on diluting IPA. We don't have an exact mineral spirit here..so maybe I will just stick with IPA diluted solution instead. (damn, hope I didn't damage the surface with those methylated spirit lol)

I will try to get pictures once I get hold of my camera. It is difficult to explain without pics.

Thanks again.

Keep us posted. The 2 x 2 area is max. Shrinking that will help with stubborn defects! Personally I really don't like the IPA wipedown but you will find that some one here do. I prefer Griots Pre Wax cleaner or Menzerna Top Inspection.

[BobbyG]

Very nice job Jim! :props:

[Temjin]

Here are two photos taken in different light modes.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_8035.JPG

See those tiny white dots? Those are the random tiny holes I mentioned.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/IMG_8040.JPG

Personally, I was quite shocked. (ignore those black stuff, just loosen fabric from my jacket) This was the actual side of the bonnet that I've spent the most time on. White pads, orange pads, did more than enough passes. Still, I am getting these minor swirls. I assume they are from the swirls left over from my compounding?

I am wondering if I am using the wrong pads combination.

Do LC Orange Pads with Chemical guy's Pro Polish create these minor swirls mark?

Should I finish the paint with a white pad and a final finish product? (Menzerna) Or do I need a lighter pad?

[Jsuro]

You might be correct in that you're creating marring with the stronger polishes. In that case a finishing pad with a finishing polish should take care of this. On the other hand, you might not be giving the stronger polishes enough work time. The ones you are using are diminishing polishes and need to be worked longer and at a higher speed and pressure until they break down. I work them until they start to disappear and then do two passes with light pressure. An orange pad should be more than sufficient for the swirls I see in your images.

Best,

Jose

[gencoupe3dot8]

A few questions?
1) About how much pressure are you putting on the polisher?
Describe as best you can.
2) Is the product "flashing"? This means it turns almost transparent and means you have worked the product to it's max potential.
3) How many passes (polish than wipedown) did you do on the areas in the photo?
4) what sized lake pads are you using?
5) What speed do you have the polisher set for?

I would not use those spirits for wipedown, but if need be use IPA.
While it's unlikely to do real damage it is likely more than you need to see the results of your polishing.

[gencoupe3dot8]

A few questions?
1) About how much pressure are you putting on the polisher?
Describe as best you can.
Should be about 9-14 lbs, enough to depress the foam somewhat, but not stop the DA from rotating (if you can, mark your backing plate with a black marker, or white paint or whatever will show you it's spinning)



2) Is the product "flashing"? This means it turns almost transparent and means you have worked the product to it's max potential.If not, that might be why you aren't seeing the product work as expected. Also make sure your polisher is at a high enough OPM (oscillations per minute) to work the product.



3) How many passes (polish than wipedown) did you do on the areas in the photo With DA polishing it make me necessary to make multiple passes, with the more aggressive polish then the finishing polish... polish, wipe down, finish, wipe down, repeat as needed.


4) what sized lake pads are you using? With DAs the smaller the pad the more the cut. Not sure what the size of your backing plate is but if you are using a large pad you may consider moving to a smaller pad. The backing plate should not overhang the pad (to protect the BP form marring the paint).


5) What speed do you have the polisher set for?Again this is key to get the polish to it's max potential, I would set to it's either highest or next to highest setting...

Would love to hear back regarding your outcome.... Im the MAN

[Temjin]

Thanks Gencoupe, and for answering your own questions too. :D


Should be about 9-14 lbs, enough to depress the foam somewhat, but not stop the DA from rotating (if you can, mark your backing plate with a black marker, or white paint or whatever will show you it's spinning)

I may not have depress the foam enough. The manual for the concourse polisher said no pressure should be applied, just the weight on the polisher is enough. This polisher seem to be more heavy than I initially anticipated. (it's actually quite tiring to use!)

I have never attempted to apply pressure to the polisher to the point that it stops rotating.



If not, that might be why you aren't seeing the product work as expected. Also make sure your polisher is at a high enough OPM (oscillations per minute) to work the product.

This could be the case, and the setting was always on 5-6.

Regarding the flashing, this is something I probably have not paid too much attention to it.

Being a white car, it wasn't as easy to determine if the product became transparent. I probably used too much of the product because I was afraid the pad could damage the paint. (which I read was almost impossible, except with these minor swirls from compounding)

I am assuming different product will have different "flashing" cycle? When I tried it with Power Gross, it seem to "flash" far eariler than CG's Pro Polish. I probably need to try it with Pro polish again but do a few more section passes.



With DA polishing it make me necessary to make multiple passes, with the more aggressive polish then the finishing polish... polish, wipe down, finish, wipe down, repeat as needed.

To the original question, ALOT! But I have already messed up the norm steps. I initially started off with a white pad and Pro Polish, at least 6 passes, then didn't get the result I want, I stepped up with orange pad with Pro Polish. Still didn't get the result, then I step one further up and went with orange pad with Menzanma's Power Gloss. It did remove a lot of the obvious swirls , but when viewed up close, I saw a lot of these haziness and very minor swirls. I may need to switch back to a finishing foam and see.



With DAs the smaller the pad the more the cut. Not sure what the size of your backing plate is but if you are using a large pad you may consider moving to a smaller pad. The backing plate should not overhang the pad (to protect the BP form marring the paint).

6.5" pads. I don't have access to smaller pad. The backing plate is designed for 6.5 and does not overhang the pad. Getting a smaller pad will mean getting a new backing plate as well.



Again this is key to get the polish to it's max potential, I would set to it's either highest or next to highest setting...

Almost always a 6. But my polisher seem to be faulty as it could simply stop rotating when I keep turning it on and off too often. At times, when I switch speed to anything below 5, it wouldn't even start at all. Though after leaving the polisher aside for (don't know, more than a few minutes), it would start working again. Heat problem? I don't know...

A member of another forum told me Hyundai Paint is VERY difficult to work with. Especially with their more modern cars.

I'm going to be trying it again tonight (10 hours later) and go with a white pad and the pro polish. Going to give it a few more passes and make sure the product has flashed down properly.

Do you think I may have accidentially created those swirls from my orange pad + power gloss compounding? Or do it look like the original condition of the paint? (which I couldn't tell because it's...white!)

And do you consider those swirls "heavy"? (but not deep?)

Many thanks again!