Find it hard to understand this quote

[ExoticAutoDetai]

So this detailer said as I quote "Spider webs are a part of life you just have to live with. Swirl marks and scratches on your car are not."


I thought spider webs, swirl marks, and holograms looks the same so therefore they all would be the same thing but to say you have to live with spider webs and not swirl marks? I am confuse.

[tuscarora dave]

That quote is just one man's opinion or belief. It sounds like either that detailer is concerned with time, too much clear coat removal or he simply doesn't have the proper tools, products or know how to remove the spider webbing from paint. In some situations it may be best to just live with spider webbing but you don't have to.

That's kind of like saying that cavities are a part of life, you just have to deal with them...When in reality you just have to brush your teeth longer, more often and with a good tooth paste and the right tooth brush. Not too confusing right?

[ExoticAutoDetai]

That quote is just one man's opinion or belief. It sounds like either that detailer is concerned with time, too much clear coat removal or he simply doesn't have the proper tools, products or know how to remove the spider webbing from paint. In some situations it may be best to just live with spider webbing but you don't have to.

That's kind of like saying that cavities are a part of life, you just have to deal with them...When in reality you just have to brush your teeth longer, more often and with a good tooth paste and the right tooth brush. Not too confusing right?

Well I looked at some of his work pictures and I noticed he uses a Makita. Seems like he knows what he is doing but he might not be using somewhat proper tools or products depending on the status of how bad what he is working on is like.


I know finishing with a rotary takes a lot of practice. Instead of starting with a rotary and finishing with a DA which is different and comes out better. That may be the solution to his problem or get better with the makita. I dont know if he owns a DA.

[tuscarora dave]

A lot of detailers out there seem to only use wool pads too. Dealerships and high production detail shops may only pay 2 or 3 hours to get the entire job finished so in that case maybe his quote is true as there will likely be not enough time to do a multiple step process to fully refine the paint's finish.

A lot of people who are not as detail oriented as we here on detailing discussion forums are, don't even see swirls and spider webs so these 3 hour details are all that they know and they probably don't even know or care that a better finish can be achieved.

I personally can achieve a better finish in the time that I am willing to spend using a rotary only. I have taken the time to finish out with a DA polisher and the results are no better than what I can achieve with a rotary.

In my pursuit for a near perfect finish detailing for money, I've had the determination and necessity to learn how to do it all with a rotary but this has been an evolving process of weeding out the pads, products and processes that don't work for me in achieving these results in the time frame that I am willing to work within. Necessity is the mother of invention.

What I do today is the result of spending thousands of dollars on testing various polishers, pads, products and processes during hundreds of paint corrections.

I have not arrived, I continually try to improve the time that it takes to achieve the results that I desire.

If a customer only wants to spend $150 then spider webs are a part of life and he or she will have to live with them and will likely not even see them. On the other hand if I get a customer that has a passion for the appearance of his or her paint finish and doesn't mind spending what it takes to get it, I take the time to over deliver for them.

[rallyruss]

I think he means REAL spider webs in your basement, attic etc.. And he means that is part of life.. But "spider webbing" on your car's finish is something you don't have to live with.

[Mike Phillips]

Does he hang out on any detailing discussion forums?

Pretty easy to figure out that detailers that hang out on detailing discussion forums tend and trend to know more about all things related to detailing than those that just hang out in the real world.

Not a put down... just a matter of a person's access to more and more information/education.


Share our forum with him...


:xyxthumbs:

[rallyruss]

If the detailer who was quoted had said "spider webs ON YOUR CAR are part of life..." then I would agree with everyone one here. But notice he said that swirls "on your car" are something you don't have to live with. I think everyone is overthinking this quote.

[Perfections]

Does he hang out on any detailing discussion forums?

Pretty easy to figure out that detailers that hang out on detailing discussion forums tend and trend to know more about all things related to detailing than those that just hang out in the real world.

Not a put down... just a matter of a person's access to more and more information/education.


Share our forum with him...


:xyxthumbs:

Theres alot of truth with this statement, I've detailed for 12 years and knew alot about the products I was using and developed techniques to master them, but only till recently I've started looking at online detailing forums and have learned so much regarding so many other products and techniques. Luckily I started off in a classroom environment and didn't have bad habits, but am still learning more and more the more i read these forums :) and if I can help someone from time to time that's just an added bonus

[jpegs13]

He's referring to real spider webs. ( I would hope)

[ExoticAutoDetai]

Well is hard to tell if is basement spider webs or paint spider webs lol But guys I send him a message regarding about his quote. Looks like he runs a shop him being the owner and operator might have 1 or 2 workers as well.

I have worked in Car wash's, Hand Car Wash's, Dealerships, and I was for a while an owner and operator of a small shop but I had to close it down. Now I am working my way up to mobile detailing. :D So yea thats why I was concern of the quote. I am not trying to make him look bad or trying to make him look like he doesn't know what he is doing.

[Mike Phillips]

In the forum world, the words cobweb swirls or spiderwebs swirls are used to describe a swirl pattern that's not related to rotary buffer swirls.

Outside of the forum world, cobwebs and spider webs are actual webs spun by spiders.


:D

[slimnib]

I think he means REAL spider webs in your basement, attic etc.. And he means that is part of life.. But "spider webbing" on your car's finish is something you don't have to live with.

You are correct. Most people misread his post. Amazing.

[Flash Gordon]

Sounds like just gave you a weak response. Spider webbing/Swirls on your finish is a matter of choice, not a fact of life

[Lasthope05]

Im suprised nobody picked up on this. I could be wrong but I think he means spiderweb cracks like in bumbers or clearcoat failure and not spiderweb/cobweb swirls(infact I dont ever hear people refering it to this).

Here is a picture I pulled off of google real quick. The left side is spider webbing.
http://mob224.photobucket.com/albums/dd66/peiserma/bumper_cover02_lowres.jpg?t=1242017227

[Mike Phillips]

Im surprised nobody picked up on this. I could be wrong but I think he means spiderweb cracks like in bumpers

Here is a picture I pulled off of google real quick. The left side is spider webbing.
http://mob224.photobucket.com/albums/dd66/peiserma/bumper_cover02_lowres.jpg?t=1242017227




Good point, this is what he could be talking about and if it is, then there's no way to fix the problem by buffing.

[QUOTE=Lasthope05;436611
and not spiderweb/cobweb swirls

(infact I dont ever hear people refering it to this).

[/quote]


Could just be me then as sometimes if a term is not established then in order to create some kind of order or precedent, I'll coin a term so I can somehow explain things via a keyboard.

One example is the acronym RIDS. RIDS is a term I used early in my detailing life that I started using on discussion forums and now it's a normal term.

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/24045-rids-definition-rids-story-behind-term.html)


Buffer Swirls, or Holograms, or Rotary Buffer Swirls, or Buffer Trails, how ever you want to describe them are different than mass scratches that are induced by other means besides the mis-use of a rotary buffer.

I need to explain this to people and I needed a term for this, so I don't think I coined the term cobweb or spider web swirls, but I sure do use these terms a lot to describe this type of scratch problem as compared to the scratches caused by a rotary buffer. Swirl at their core are in fact scratches.

Here's something I wrote in 2008 on MOL, but it's a term I've used for as long as I can remember.

Cobweb Swirls vs Rotary Buffer Swirls (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21066)


Here's something on this forum...

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/22234-tracers-rids-pigtails-cobweb-swirls-rotary-buffer-swirls-holograms-water-spots-bird-droping-etchings-micro-marring.html)


Here's another article on the topic...

The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28443-difference-between-rotary-buffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html)

There’s a lot of talk about swirls on detailing discussion forums when it comes to the topic of paint correction and I’m going to do my best to differentiate between the two primary groups of swirls as well as explain what Tick Marks or Micro-Marring is and then show what all 3 types of paint defects look like.


Swirls are Scratches
First off, lets make sure everyone understands what swirls are at their core scratches in the paint.

That’s right; swirls are simply scratches in the paint. Why we call them swirls instead of scratches is because of they way they look as compared to our preconceived ideas as to how we think scratches should look.

Most of us think of scratches as defects that are in more or less straight lines, like this,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/StraightScratch.jpg



Swirls on the other hand are usually thought of as having a visual appearance of circular patterns of some type and when we view swirls, they do have circular patterns and it is these patterns that identify which type of swirls we’re looking at and more important.. how they were instilled into the paint.

Above and Below
Before we get into the different types of swirls and micro-marring, lets address the topic of above and below surface paint defects because which type of defect you’re working on will determine how you remove it.


Above Surface Bonded Contaminants
This would include air-borne contaminants that land on your car’s finish and then bond to the paint tightly enough that they won’t wash off when you wash your car. For example, Overspray Paint, Industrial Fallout, Pollution, Tree Sap Mist, basically any kind of contaminant that can becomes air-borne and lands on the surface of your car’s paint. Above Surface Bonded Contaminants can usually be removed using detailing clay and the removal process does not remove any good paint. While we’re talking about detailing clay, one of the most common questions I get is,

“Will detailing clay remove swirls?”

The answer is “no”

Detailing clay only removes contaminants sitting or bonded to the “top” of the paint, detailing clay will not abrade the paint and level it like an abrasive compound or polish.


Below Surface Paint Defects
This would include, all types of swirls, all scratches and any type of etching that penetrates below the original surface level of the top coat of paint.

Because below surface defects are physically a defect that is “in” the paint, not “on” the paint, the only way to remove Below Surface Paint Defects is to physically abrade the paint. The goal is to remove enough of the paint surrounding the Below Surface Paint Defects to level the upper most surface of the top coat with the lowest depths of the defects you’re trying to remove.

Does that make sense?


The problem is paint is thin. Because paint is thin you are limited to how much paint you can safely remove without jeopardizing the integrity of the top coat and/or possibly removing so much paint that you expose the underlying color coat in the case of a basecoat/clearcoat paint system or primer in the case of a single stage paint system.


Now that we know,

What swirls are
Where they’re located in the paint
How to remove them
Lets take a look at the different types of swirls.


Rotary Buffer Swirls
Also called: Holograms or Buffer Trails


Rotary Buffer Swirls, also called Holograms or Buffer Trails are circular scratches inflicted into paint by a rotary buffer and usually by the individual fibers that make up a wool cutting or polishing pad. The abrasives used in most compounds and polishes can also inflict swirls into a car's finish, thus anytime you're using a wool buffing pad and a compound or polish you now have two things potentially inflicting swirls into the paint.

Foam pads can also inflict rotary buffer swirls into paint depending upon the aggressiveness of the foam formula and the product used.

It is the direct drive rotating action of a rotary buffer that instills the circular pattern of scratches into paint usually in some type of zig-zag pattern that mimics the pattern in which the buffer was moved over the paint by the technician.

A rotary buffer is not evil because it and the buffing pads and compounds used with it impart swirls into paint, it's just a part of the cause and effect from using a direct drive tool that rotates a buffing pad in a single rotating direction.


Rotary Buffer Swirls usually show up when a car is exposed to bright light like the sun when its high overhead in the sky.

It's possible to use a rotary buffer and not instill rotary buffer swirl if the operator has a high skill level and uses quality pads and products. If rotary buffer swirls are instilled into paint, a true professional will do a follow-up process to remove them using less aggressive pads and products and sometimes switch to a different type of tool with a different mechanical polishing action.


The primary visual difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls and Cobweb Swirls is the rotary buffer imparts this identifiable pattern while Cobweb Swirls do not.

Examples of Rotary Buffer Swirls
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/69ss4.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous005.jpg


The zillions of swirls in the clear layer makes the paint look hazy and blocks your view of the black paint under the clear top coat. This reduces the darkness of the paint making the true black look gray.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous006.jpg




Cobweb Swirls also called Spiderweb Swirls
Cobweb or Spiderweb swirls get their name because of the visual effect created when you place a strong source of focused bright light, like the Sun or the light from a Brinkmann Swirl Finder light onto a section of paint and view the finish.

The swirls you see look as though they form a circular pattern around the point of light but that's not actually what's taking place.


The fact of the matter is that the entire finish is so filled with random scratches, both straight and circular, that wherever you place a point of strong, focused light you'll see the circular or cobweb pattern show up because the millions of random scratches are reflecting light back to the source; this is what causes the visual cobweb effect.

You can easily prove this to be the case by simply moving your body position in a way that moves the point of light around to a different place on the panel.

As you move positions and thus move where the light is shining on the paint, it appears that wherever you place the point of light there is a circular or cobweb pattern of scratches in the paint.

The scratches are not specifically circular or round scratches and many of the scratches in the paint may be in straight lines, but with a strong beam of light shining on the paint the visual effect from the scratches all shining light back at the source creates the cobweb effect.


Does that make sense?


Cobweb scratches are instilled by all the random ways the paint is scratched through normal wear-n-tear and improper washing methods and products. Over time the finish is so filled with random scratches that the cobweb effect is the visual results when you look at the paint in bright light.

The cobweb swirl pattern is a different pattern than what you see with rotary buffer swirls because the rotary buffer swirls are not instilled randomly over time, they are instilled by a known source, (not random), usually in one detailing session.


Cobweb Swirls
Also called: Spiderweb Swirls

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/bmwcobwebswirls.jpg





Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze

These three terms are pretty much the accepted terms for a scratch pattern left in some paints from the oscillating and rotating action from a compound or polish and a buffing pad when applied using a DA Polisher.

Unlike Cobweb swirls or Rotary Buffer Swirls, the scratch pattern instilled by a dual action polisher is made up of millions of tiny scratches, some are curved or circular but some are straight, like a small tick mark you would make with a pencil if you were keeping track of a count of some type.

Tick Marks are a sign that either the paint is on the soft side, so easily scratched or the pad and compound or polish you're using are too aggressive to finish out without leaving a mark.

In most cases Tick Marks can be removed by re-polishing with a different pad and product combination.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks02.jpg




<End of article>


But everyone can describe the different types of swirls scratches with whatever term they know, or use or like... I just needed some terms I can use over and over again in the detailing industry as I refer to the different scratch issues all the time.


:xyxthumbs: