IMO, the Flex 3401 is no longer DA king...

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I NEVER thought I would be saying this as I've been a huge 3401 fan, and still am, BUT, with new pads and products, the "traditional" DA has worked even better for me. I detail mainly daily drivers that have bad swirls(not necessarily oxidized paint). I always start with a test spot, 3401/orange/M105. On the last few cars, this combo just did not cut it. Some of the most aggressive DA pads out there are the Meg's DA MF cutting discs and surbuf. I find it ironic how these pads work more efficiently with a traditional DA. Lately, I've found myself reaching for the Meg's MF discs/D300 and my Griot's DA for heavier cutting. So, people who feel the need to "upgrade" to the 3401, well, I don't find that to be the case anymore. Just some food for thought. :dblthumb2:

[embolism]

I still am looking for the definitive review that measures how much clear is being removed. Bottom line, if ppl are getting such good results with them, ergo the combo must be levelling more or faster...

[cobalt9123]

My GG DA has also served me well without upgrading to a Flex. Love my warranty as well.

[PorscheGuy997]

I still am looking for the definitive review that measures how much clear is being removed.

I really don't think this can be achieved by using a normal thickness gauge.

Unless the material is perfectly level across the surface, the measurements in one area will not give an accurate representation of the thickness. One spot is not enough.

Temperature will again play a part in the thickness. I have experienced this first hand. After polishing an area with a heavy compound, cutting pad and rotary, the area actually measured thicker than the beginning measurement. Paint expands with heat. The initial and after surface temperature must remain the same. Since the DA does not heat the surface like a rotary, it will be a bit easier to test. But, the temperature will still play a factor.

I have measured a few panels after compounding with a 5" MF cutting pad and D300 and the results differed between no difference in paint thickness and a one micro thickness reduction. That is within the margin of error for my ETG-A.

[zliegen]

My GG DA has also served me well without upgrading to a Flex. Love my warranty as well.
:iagree:

[fancyfootwork]

That's very interesting Mark. I was considering getting a Flex too. I love my PC though, just so.. simple.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

That's very interesting Mark. I was considering getting a Flex too. I love my PC though, just so.. simple.
Eric, don't get me wrong, the 3401 is awesome, just more geared for foam pads. However, the heavier cutting pads these days are not foam.

[fancyfootwork]

Eric, don't get me wrong, the 3401 is awesome, just more geared for foam pads. However, the heavier cutting pads these days are not foam.

I will get a Flex regardless.. I just wanted to make up some sort of reasoning not too. Haha.

[fredcandetail]

Hey Mark ... What about the high spots and curves when the DA doesnt spin???

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Hey Mark ... What about the high spots and curves when the DA doesnt spin???
Hey Fred, that a very good point. However, I'm getting more used to how to get around this. It's all about adjusting technique. However, the forced rotation of the 3401 is VERY cool.

[Mike Phillips]

Unless the material is perfectly level across the surface, the measurements in one area will not give an accurate representation of the thickness. One spot is not enough.




Great points in your reply Chris...

I document multiple readings in this thread that uses the factory finish on 1999 Chevy Silverado, it's never been repainted. The paint was fairly uniform in thickness but that shouldn't be too surprising for factory paint on a single, flat panel. You start working on repaints and you're going to find readings all over the board...

Here's an excerpt...

Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/21463-removing-sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html)

Run what you brung - Use what you have
Black paint always works best for most paint related demonstrations. Black paint is also best for capturing photos of sanding marks plus before and after reflection shots but for this kind of demonstration it's important to be working on real-world paint which means a factory baked-on clear coat that's as thin as the norm for factory paint. I'm a big fan of using what you have and what I have is a beige colored hood off a 1999 Chevy Silverado that's never been repainted.

For this experiment I'm going to sand in three different section and do my very best to sand each section equally, as though I were actually sanding the orange peel flat and then remove my sanding marks and throughout the process measure and record 4 places in each of the 3 sections and then look at the numbers to see how much paint is being removed. At some level this will be a test of my ability to remain constant in my sanding ability, something that is key in the real world when hand sanding paint.

Whenever you do any kind of testing it's vitally important to remove and reduce as many variables as possible, so I came up with a way of using 3M Painter's Masking Tape to create a grid pattern on the hood that I could use to locate the 3 locations in a repeatable method.

I then used the 3M Painter's Tape Grid System to take my measurements with the goal being to record measurements from the same locations for each reading as much as possible. To check myself and my consistency in sanding and compounding, I chose 3 places to duplicate the same test and recorded all the measurements as a "control".


So here we go...

A grid pattern laid out to provide 3 areas to test that are all flat in shape and in places where we would hope the paint thickness or film-build would be as uniform as possible from a factory paint job as compared to testing on the hood, a door, (vertical panel), or some other curved or slanted panel. Again, trying to reduce the variables as much as possible.

3M Painter's Tape Grid System
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1015.jpg


Three sections marked A, B, and C. The piece of foam is marked with the letter E which stands for "Equalizer" as I need a quick simple tool to help me place 4 dots on the paint in roughly the same place for each step and measurement. I hindsight a piece of thin cardboard with 3-4 holes punched into the corners would have been more accurate but this isn't Rocket Science, I'm just trying to show how much paint is being removed on average when hand-sanding with the higher grit papers like the average online enthusiast might do in their garage. In other words, I'm keeping it real-world.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1016.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1017.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1018.jpg


Then I used the PosiTest Paint Thickness Gage and measured each dot 3 times and took the average of the 3 readings. I started in the upper left hand corner and moved around the dots in a clockwise manner. In this picture I've just finished taking the last reading of the number #4 dot at the C location on the panel. (The upper left hand corner dot)
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1019.jpg


Here are the results from the first set of measurements from the three locations on the paint panel.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1020.jpg


:)

[Harleyguy]

I NEVER thought I would be saying this as I've been a huge 3401 fan, and still am, BUT, with new pads and products, the "traditional" DA has worked even better for me. I detail mainly daily drivers that have bad swirls(not necessarily oxidized paint). I always start with a test spot, 3401/orange/M105. On the last few cars, this combo just did not cut it. Some of the most aggressive DA pads out there are the Meg's DA MF cutting discs and surbuf. I find it ironic how these pads work more efficiently with a traditional DA. Lately, I've found myself reaching for the Meg's MF discs/D300 and my Griot's DA for heavier cutting. So, people who feel the need to "upgrade" to the 3401, well, I don't find that to be the case anymore. Just some food for thought. :dblthumb2:OMG Mark I think hell just froze over .

[VISITOR]

when someone new to machine polishing wants a DA, i've always mentioned getting a DA like the GG6, G110v2 or PCXP over the Flex. with different backing plates and carpet attachments, it makes it very versatile and you can accomplish quite a bit with all the different pads/products out these days. who knows what the future holds...

[WRAPT C5Z06]

OMG Mark I think hell just froze over .
LMAO!!!! x 100 :laughing:

[dad07]

OMG Mark I think hell just froze over .


Nope! Still hot here!