M d151

[jamores23]

ok i finally got my md151. I have a client tomorrow that wants wash clay wax and interior done including shampoo and condition leather it is a bmw 330 i 2005 . Im thinking about using the d151 because his paint isnt in all that great of shape. this client is actually more of a friend that runs a tire business so of course his referral base is nice :) im charging him $125 which i feel is pretty cheap but then again his referral kick back is what im looking for! hes got light imperfections on the surface and the car is red :) would the d151 be perfect for this situation?? if so i have LC CCS pads ALL COLORS which ones do i use? at what speed with a rotary? when im done should i apply a lsp? from my understanding 151 is AIO ?

[Mister B]

Yes, D151 is an AIO (All In One). I think it would be a good candidate for that Vehicle. As far as pads, I have had good success with the orange pads and the white pads depending on the severity of the defects in the paint. Do a few test spots with the various pads that you have to see which one gives you the best results with this particular paint. It's good stuff, but do not expect M105 results.

[jamores23]

would it leave behind any marks that would have to be followed up by a finer polish i have menzernas line up that i use as a 3 step (po83, p106, and po85rd) so im figuring the po85rd wold take place of 105?? but is this necessary?

[Mister B]

would it leave behind any marks that would have to be followed up by a finer polish i have menzernas line up that i use as a 3 step (po83, p106, and po85rd) so im figuring the po85rd wold take place of 105?? but is this necessary?

It's hard to say if it will leave any marks behind without trying it out first. Too many variables to say for sure. It would depend on the paint, your pad choice, possibly your technique. Do a test spot to find out. If it does leave marks that you think should be followed up by a polish it kind of defeats the purpose of an AIO product, so you may want to switch to a different product at that point if you will be doing multiple steps to correct the paint.

[5.4 Shelby]

so im figuring the po85rd wold take place of 105?? but is this necessary?
No, the 105 and 85rd are opposite spectrum polishes. 105 is a compound and 85rd is a fine finishing polish.

[jamores23]

im mainly shooting for a good finish with JUST 151. im guess im just more anxious to use the 151 more than anything lol. hopefully it doesnt turn into a 2-3 step process for 125 bucks lol

[mc4nam]

Sorry to jump in on a thread, but I have a red truck and got a sample of D151. I do not have a DA. I just take care of my 2 vehicles.

I have some really fine swirls. Not super noticeable, but I can see them. Will the D151 get very good results when used by hand? I am willing to use something else or do multiple steps if necessary, but I would like to use what I have instead of buying something else.

The waxes/polishes I have right now are:

Surf City Garage - Beyond Clay
Surf City Garage - Nano Glaze
Surf City Garage - Nano Seal
Surf City Garage - Barrier Reef Carnauba Wax
Collonite 845
Zaino - Z5 PRO Show Car Polish for Swirl Marks and Fine Scratches

I do have some Zaino Z-18 clay that i plan on doing 1st.

I was going to do something for correction, then follow up with the the Nano Seal and then either the colonite or SSG Carnauba for maximum gloss and depth.

If it matters, I have 2004 Toyota Tacoma. (Soft or hard Paint? Single Stage?)

Thoughts?

[aerogt01]

. . .hes got light imperfections on the surface and the car is red :) would the d151 be perfect for this situation?? if so i have LC CCS pads ALL COLORS which ones do i use? at what speed with a rotary? when im done should i apply a lsp? from my understanding 151 is AIO ?

D151 is kind-of a multi-tool of the detailing world. With a cutting pad and rotary it will take out sanding marks, but with a finishing pad it will leave a great finish (except for extremely sensitive paint). It's cutting ability depends on pad choice, machine choice, and technique. As always, use the least aggressive method possible and go up from there if you are not satisfied. Just be aware you may need to turn it into a multi-step if you want a large amount of correction and a no-hologram finish. As advice, I would start with a green or white pad.

Wait for the product to dry before wiping off and you will get the maximum protective properties, however they aren't as good as a decent sealant. Top if you desire, I see about 2 months durability from D151 itself on a DD.

And as always, make sure you are familiar with a rotary before using it on a car you care about!:xyxthumbs:


Will the D151 get very good results when used by hand?

Think of D151 as an aggressive cleaner-wax. It will only do any correction if you are willing to put some passion behind the pad (Mike Phillips reference) and work the product in, rather than just applying it gently like an LSP. It will take some exercise, but I have achieved a decent amount of correction using D151 by hand.

Hope this helps! It's good stuff! :props:

[mc4nam]

Think of D151 as an aggressive cleaner-wax. It will only do any correction if you are willing to put some passion behind the pad (Mike Phillips reference) and work the product in, rather than just applying it gently like an LSP. It will take some exercise, but I have achieved a decent amount of correction using D151 by hand.

Hope this helps! It's good stuff! :props:

Thank You. Do you apply it pretty thin by hand? In circles or just a back and forth method? I don't mind a little are workout, but do I need to push into the paint really hard since it seems to be minor swirls?

[aerogt01]

You should work with more product than you would with just a wax. You are trying to do the work of a polish, except this 'polish' will dry and leave a wax coating.

When you say "push into the paint really hard" I get a little hesitant. You should try to spread your hand pressure evenly over an area of your applicator. A few pounds of total force would not be unheard of for this stage.

Some guidance can be found here -->http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/20257-man-versus-machine.html

[jamores23]

how many rpms (rotary) should i use 151 at with a white pad? will i have to follow up the white pad with a gray pad? or should i just go with the gray pad? and how long does 151 take to break down via rotary

[Mike Phillips]

how many rpms (rotary) should i use 151 at with a white pad? will i have to follow up the white pad with a gray pad? or should i just go with the gray pad? and how long does 151 take to break down via rotary

A range from 1100 RPM to about 1500 RPM is a good ballpark, kind of depends upon your pad size, you're skill level and the panel you're working on...


D151 is a SMAT product, so the abrasives don't break down like you think with a diminishing abrasive product. You can stop anytime during the buffing process.

See these articles,


The Aggressiveness Order of SMAT Products - This might surprise you! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23583-aggressiveness-order-smat-products-might-surprise-you.html)


The SMAT Pack - Everything you ever wanted to know about Meguiar's SMAT products... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23561-smat-pack-everything-you-ever-wanted-know-about-meguiar-s-smat-products.html)

Here's an excerpt from the above article,




What's the difference between DAT and SMAT

SMAT - Super Micro Abrasives Technology
DAT - Diminishing Abrasives Technology


DAT - Diminishing Abrasives Technology
Diminishing Abrasives are a category of abrasives that actually break down, pulverize and disintegrate into nothingness as you work them against the paint.

For example, a diminishing abrasive will start out a certain size and/or shape, then under pressure over time as they are worked against the paint they will actually breakdown or break apart. This means they start out aggressive and thus aggressively abrading the paint, as they are worked under pressure over time they begin to break down and as they breakdown their aggressiveness level is reduced to the point that when correctly worked they are completely broken down and all you have left is a mixture of spent or used-up diminishing abrasives and the carrying agent or base they were embodied in to start with. There's also a certain amount of removed paint in this resulting mixture.



SMAT - Super Micro Abrasives Technology
Super Micro Abrasives are as the name states microscopic in size and do not break down like diminishing abrasives. While they may not breakdown like a diminishing abrasive, there does come a point where there effectiveness falls off in performance, my guess is that this is a cumulative effect of the base formula they are embodied in dissipates while particles of removed paint build up in the residue adulterating or diluting their effectiveness.

Just to note, this same adulterating or diluting effect takes place with any abrasive product because as the abrasive remove small particles of paint, these small particle of paint join into the mixture thus changing the ratio or percentage of abrasives to the base formula.


What's the practical difference?
The biggest difference that I can share is this, with diminishing abrasive technology you MUST work the product until the abrasives have completely broken down to insure you don't leave any swirls in the paint. The reason for this is because if you stop buffing before the abrasives have completely broken down then they are still cutting or abrading the paint, thus leaving swirls in the paint.

This isn't really a problem because most diminishing abrasive products when used correctly will break down over a normal buffing cycle, (period of time and number of passes), to sufficiently break the abrasives down. It's usually only an issue for people new to car detailing who are learning as they go.


With Super Micro Abrasive Technology, theoretically, because the abrasives don't break down, or more specifically because the abrasives don't break down like diminishing abrasives break down, you can stop anywhere in the buffing cycle without leaving swirls caused by the abrasives. This would tend to make SMAT products more "Bubba-Proof" with an easier or more flat learning curve.

Because the abrasives don't break down like traditional diminishing abrasives, and from experience leave a very clear, scratch-free finish whether you're using the most aggressive or the most non-aggressive products, this new technology kind of throws a monkey wrench into the philosophy of,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"


Notice in the above statement I used the word aggressive, not abrasive.

This is how the statement is supposed to be written because there are more factors involved besides just the liquid chemical that contribute to how aggressive a process is, for example, your application material can be a HUGE factor as to how aggressive your choice of products are. I just point this out because I see others typing the above quote and often times they write,

"Use the least abrasive product to get the job done"


While the meaning is close, it's not exact as you can use products that are not abrasive at all to accomplish a task and still be following the philosophy.

But I digress... back to the topic at hand...


Why it's important to use the least aggressive product to get the job done?
The idea behind using the least aggressive product to get the job done is to remove the defect or defects while leaving the maximum amount of paint on the car.

For any Newbies reading this, anytime you remove a defect or defects like swirls, scratches Type II Water Spot Etchings, Type I Bird Dropping - Topical Stain Etchings, Sanding Marks after wet-sanding, you must remove some paint from the surface until you level the surface of the paint with the lowest depths of the defects you're trying to remove.

So removing below surface defects means removing paint.

That's normal and acceptable but the problem is paint is thin and from what I've seen over the years getting thinner. That means you and me don't have a lot of room for error and for decades, dating back to the Model T, the philosophy of,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

worked and made a lot of sense. Paint is thin and you only want to remove as little as as you have to in order to remove the defects so your paint will last over the service life of the car.

Now let me tie this train-of-thought together with SMAT products and why it throws a monkey wrench into traditional thinking.

Because the abrasives used in SMAT products don't break down in the same way diminishing abrasives break down and tend to leave a scratch-free, high gloss finish, (no matter which product you're using), this means you apply them and then only work them till the defects are gone.

Once the defects are gone, (and you visually see this as you work an area), you then stop working the product and wipe off the residue and move to the next step or a new section.

It's this ability to stop when the defects have been removed instead of stopping after the diminishing abrasive have broken down that throws a wrench into the old tried and true philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done because theoretically you can start with the most aggressive product and because you stop after the defects have been removed you achieve the same goal as you would have achieved by using the least aggressive product to get the job done but you can usually do it faster and more effectivley... AND you leave the same amount of paint on the car.

With diminishing abrasives, it could be that you've removed the defects but if you removed them before the abrasives fully broke down, you must continue to work the products to avoid leaving swirls in the paint because the abrasives are still abrading, this means you're removing paint you don't have to remove. At least that's the theory I'm presenting in this article.


Make sense?


IF not, then chew on the ideas presented above and if you're still confused then post your questions to the forum! :D


I'd like to stress that this isn't a huge matter because the amount of paint you're removing with either approach is usually nominal in the big picture of things and both SMAT products and DAT products are both tried and true products that will get the job done safely, especially compared to the types of abrasive products that were historically used on car paint until clear coats became the new norm.

Here's an overview of SMAT Products, keep in mind that some of these products are not targeted at the majority of people that will read this article, that is enthusiasts and detailers, some of these products are formulated for and targeted to the refinishing industry. Other products are targeted directly at the enthusiast of Consumer Market. Below I will address each of these markets.




:)