Need some advice using porter cable and M84!!!

[JefriLay]

Hi Mike Phillips and other members who read this thread
Like you said before Mike on the email you sent me, I've join the forum and need some expert advice from you.
I have bought porter cable 7424xp, lake country white and black polishing pad.
I have some more questions before I use this porter cable:
1. Can I use apply M84 with this polisher together with white polisher pad? What do you think?
2. Can I apply M80 after applying M84 using this polisher?
If you have another suggestion, please tell me. So I can do it right this time to get a perfect result. But I want to maximize the result with the product I have.
By the way this is all I got:
1. Porter cable 7424xp
2. Lake country white polishing pad (1pcs)
3. Lake country black polishing pad (1pcs)
4. M84
5. M80
6. D155
7. Gold class paste wax
Can these product I have completely remove light swirls and light scratches I have?
Please guide me guys. And Greeting from Indonesia to all Autogeek Online Members.
Really need your advice.

Best regards,
Jefri Lay

[john b]

i tried to look up m84 on ag and could not find it

[Dr Oldz]

M84 is designed for rotaries. Ur PC will not be able to break down the abrasives properly thus leaving marring. I would not personally recommend using it with a dual action. If u are leaning towards Megs products I would try 105/205 or ultimate compound/ultimate polish with ur DA. I would also suggest at least an orange LC pad with the compounds and white with the polishes. And I would also suggest more than one pad per vehicle. U may also want to consider the Wolfgang twins as they seem to be easier to use for the beginner. What are u working on and what condition is it in? Oh and welcome to the AG forums.

[JefriLay]

i tried to look up m84 on ag and could not find it
maybe you can find it on google. search for M84 Meguiar's
Thanks

[JefriLay]

M84 is designed for rotaries. Ur PC will not be able to break down the abrasives properly thus leaving marring. I would not personally recommend using it with a dual action. If u are leaning towards Megs products I would try 105/205 or ultimate compound/ultimate polish with ur DA. I would also suggest at least an orange LC pad with the compounds and white with the polishes. And I would also suggest more than one pad per vehicle. U may also want to consider the Wolfgang twins as they seem to be easier to use for the beginner. What are u working on and what condition is it in? Oh and welcome to the AG forums.
Thanks Dr Oldz for your respond. I'll add some pictures as soon as possible. I can't upload now, maybe there is some internal error in the system.
As I mentioned above, I only have those product right now and wonder if I can optimize the detailing process using those products. Maybe I'll try using M80 on white pad. Now I'm still searching some more input before I do the detailing.
For your info. Why I insist using those product, that's because the limited budget issue :(

[Mike Phillips]

M84 is designed for rotaries. Ur PC will not be able to break down the abrasives properly thus leaving marring.


Correct. M85, M84, M01, M04 are all for use with rotary buffers only for the reasons Dr Oldz stated.





I have bought porter cable 7424xp, lake country white and black polishing pad.
I have some more questions before I use this porter cable:
1. Can I use apply M84 with this polisher together with white polisher pad? What do you think?


I've known guys that have used M84 with DA Polishers to remove defects but you're going to have to do some follow-up polishing. M84 uses two types of diminishing abrasives if memory serves me correctly, so it "yes" when it's worked against the paint it's going to "affect" it, it's just older technology. I would save it for use on finishes that are in really bad shape.



2. Can I apply M80 after applying M84 using this polisher?


Yes. I've used M80 with DA Polishers probably as much as anyone alive on earth and used this in all the Meguiar's Detailing classes at the Meguiar's Detailing Classes until Ultimate Compound and SwirlX were introduced because nothing else in the Consumer Line was very effective at removing swirls out of clear coat paints. ScratchX could work but it wasn't as effective as M80 Speed Glaze.

The problem with M80 Speed Glaze and other cleaner/polishes in that line was that while they would remove swirls, water spots and scratches, they will tend to leave micro-marring behind. This is true for many polishes by many companies. I've been saying this for years but here goes again,

Clear coat paints are hard to work on. Of course in this year of 2011 there are now a number of really good products that won't leave micro-marring behind, but until just the last few years, most products leave some type of tick mark, haze or micro-marring in the paint when used with a tool that oscillates. When these products are used with a rotary buffer they can leave holograms. Clear coat paints show EVERYTHING, that is if the underlying basecoat is dark color as with light colors it can be hard to see any residual haze or micro-marring just because of the lightness of the color.

When clearcoat paints became the norm in the 1980's all polish manufactures were struggling to modify their abrasive formulas to work better, it was a problem for everyone in the industry. The good news is the introduction of clear coat paint pushed polish manufactures and specifically the "Chemists" that create the formulas to work harder and push their skills and abilities to their limits.





If you have another suggestion, please tell me. So I can do it right this time to get a perfect result. But I want to maximize the result with the product I have.
By the way this is all I got:
1. Porter cable 7424XP
2. Lake country white polishing pad (1pcs)
3. Lake country black polishing pad (1pcs)
4. M84
5. M80
6. D155
7. Gold class paste wax
Can these product I have completely remove light swirls and light scratches I have?
Please guide me guys. And Greeting from Indonesia to all Autogeek Online Members.
Really need your advice.

Best regards,
Jefri Lay

Because paints systems are all different, you really don't know what you can do until you try, thus I'm not going to say you can't use M84 or M80 to create a flawless finish using a DA Polisher. I will say before buffing out an entire car that if it were me I would do a Test Spot and dial in a process that works to make one area look GREAT before buffing out the rest of the car.


What type of detailing are you mostly doing?

Daily Drivers - Production Work
Show Cars - Show Car Detailing


If you're mostly doing daily drivers, then the goal is to do a good job and make a profit and in order to make a profit you really don't want to be doing multiple-step procedures, you want to wash, clay and machine apply a cleaner/wax.

You listed D155 but I'm guessing you meant D151, this is a one step cleaner/wax and should tackle most of the customer's cars you come across.

Don't promise perfection to your customers because most of the time they don't understand how many hours it takes to reach perfection and thus won't want to pay for it. Also, if it's just a daily driver it's just going to get swirls and scratches again. So aim for making the paint shiny, not perfect, most people will still think you're amazing.

Read these two articles,

A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-make-money-detailing-cars/27827-few-tips-starting-part-time-detailing-business.html)

The difference between a swirl and squirrel (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/23142-difference-between-swirl-squirrel.html)

:xyxthumbs:

[JefriLay]

Correct. M85, M84, M01, M04 are all for use with rotary buffers only for the reasons Dr Oldz stated.





I've known guys that have used M84 with DA Polishers to remove defects but you're going to have to do some follow-up polishing. M84 uses two types of diminishing abrasives if memory serves me correctly, so it "yes" when it's worked against the paint it's going to "affect" it, it's just older technology. I would save it for use on finishes that are in really bad shape.



Yes. I've used M80 with DA Polishers probably as much as anyone alive on earth and used this in all the Meguiar's Detailing classes at the Meguiar's Detailing Classes until Ultimate Compound and SwirlX were introduced because nothing else in the Consumer Line was very effective at removing swirls out of clear coat paints. ScratchX could work but it wasn't as effective as M80 Speed Glaze.

The problem with M80 Speed Glaze and other cleaner/polishes in that line was that while they would remove swirls, water spots and scratches, they will tend to leave micro-marring behind. This is true for many polishes by many companies. I've been saying this for years but here goes again,

Clear coat paints are hard to work on. Of course in this year of 2011 there are now a number of really good products that won't leave micro-marring behind, but until just the last few years, most products leave some type of tick mark, haze or micro-marring in the paint when used with a tool that oscillates. When these products are used with a rotary buffer they can leave holograms. Clear coat paints show EVERYTHING, that is if the underlying basecoat is dark color as with light colors it can be hard to see any residual haze or micro-marring just because of the lightness of the color.

When clearcoat paints became the norm in the 1980's all polish manufactures were struggling to modify their abrasive formulas to work better, it was a problem for everyone in the industry. The good news is the introduction of clear coat paint pushed polish manufactures and specifically the "Chemists" that create the formulas to work harder and push their skills and abilities to their limits.




Because paints systems are all different, you really don't know what you can do until you try, thus I'm not going to say you can't use M84 or M80 to create a flawless finish using a DA Polisher. I will say before buffing out an entire car that if it were me I would do a Test Spot and dial in a process that works to make one area look GREAT before buffing out the rest of the car.


What type of detailing are you mostly doing?

Daily Drivers - Production Work
Show Cars - Show Car Detailing


If you're mostly doing daily drivers, then the goal is to do a good job and make a profit and in order to make a profit you really don't want to be doing multiple-step procedures, you want to wash, clay and machine apply a cleaner/wax.

You listed D155 but I'm guessing you meant D151, this is a one step cleaner/wax and should tackle most of the customer's cars you come across.

Don't promise perfection to your customers because most of the time they don't understand how many hours it takes to reach perfection and thus won't want to pay for it. Also, if it's just a daily driver it's just going to get swirls and scratches again. So aim for making the paint shiny, not perfect, most people will still think you're amazing.

Read these two articles,

A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-make-money-detailing-cars/27827-few-tips-starting-part-time-detailing-business.html)

The difference between a swirl and squirrel (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/23142-difference-between-swirl-squirrel.html)

:xyxthumbs:

Hi Mike,

Thank you so much for your reply, it explained much to me.
So in your opinion what should I try first,
1. Using M80 first on white pad and then Wax it. If there's micro-marring after applying it, what should I do then?
(I'll do a test spot first)
--------- OR ----------
2. Using M84 first and then followed by M80 and then Wax it.
(I'll do a test spot first)


D155 I've mentioned above is "Last Touch". I use it when I clay my car.


I'm new to detailing and just start detailing for myself and there is no profit on it because I do this for my own car. The type of the car is ISUZU NEW PANTHER 2008 (I guess it is only in Indonesia), color is black, I cannot upload photos (don't know why).
It is not a high class car (like Audi, BMW). Since this the the first car that I bought with my own efforts, so I want to take care of this car properly. Maybe it's too much for a regular car but what can I say.. I love this car :)

Now I really interested in detailing and will learn as much as I can, when I can understand how to detail and what product I have to use, then that is the time I open my own detailing business ;) For now I just want to make my own car perfect.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mike,

Thank you so much for your reply, it explained much to me.
So in your opinion what should I try first,
1. Using M80 first on white pad and then Wax it.


Yes.

Hit it with the M80 following the technique outlined here,

Show Car Garage Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)


And read through these articles,

How to maximize the ability of the 1st Generation Porter Cable Dual Action Polishers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/27166-how-maximize-ability-1st-gen-porter-cable-dual-action-polishers.html)

The Definitive How-To Article for Removing Swirls, Scratches and Water Spots Using a Porter Cable 7424XP, G110v2 or Griot's Garage Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/20021-definitive-how-article-removing-swirls-scratches-water-spots-using-porter-cable-7424xp-g110v2-griot-s-garage-polisher.html) - Includes Videos




If there's micro-marring after applying it, what should I do then?
(I'll do a test spot first)


You'll need to get a different swirl mark remover. These would probably tackle your car just fine and they're easy to work with...




--------- OR ----------
2. Using M84 first and then followed by M80 and then Wax it.
(I'll do a test spot first)


If M80 isn't aggressive enough to remove the defects to your satisfaction, then instead of using M84 you would be better to get a different product since you love your Isuzu Pathfinder.

Try the M80 first...

:)

[JefriLay]

Yes.

Hit it with the M80 following the technique outlined here,

Show Car Garage Video: How-To do a "Section Pass" when Machine Polishing with a DA Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-videos/24074-video-how-do-section-pass-when-machine-buffing.html)


And read through these articles,

How to maximize the ability of the 1st Generation Porter Cable Dual Action Polishers (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/27166-how-maximize-ability-1st-gen-porter-cable-dual-action-polishers.html)

The Definitive How-To Article for Removing Swirls, Scratches and Water Spots Using a Porter Cable 7424XP, G110v2 or Griot's Garage Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/20021-definitive-how-article-removing-swirls-scratches-water-spots-using-porter-cable-7424xp-g110v2-griot-s-garage-polisher.html) - Includes Videos




You'll need to get a different swirl mark remover. These would probably tackle your car just fine and they're easy to work with...




If M80 isn't aggressive enough to remove the defects to your satisfaction, then instead of using M84 you would be better to get a different product since you love your Isuzu Pathfinder.

Try the M80 first...

:)

Hi again Mike,
Your explanation is crystal clear. I'll work on it as soon as possible. I'm still looking for marking tapes because 6 days ago when I detail my car by hand using regular tape there is adhesive left over the paint.
It would be easier if you are in Indonesia... Ha ha ha (I think it's impossible)
Okay then, I'll update as soon as I finished detailing my car.
Really appreciate your advice. Thank you.

Best regards,
Jefri Lay

[JefriLay]

Hi again Mike,
Your explanation is crystal clear. I'll work on it as soon as possible. I'm still looking for marking tapes because 6 days ago when I detail my car by hand using regular tape there is adhesive left over the paint.
It would be easier if you are in Indonesia... Ha ha ha (I think it's impossible)
Okay then, I'll update as soon as I finished detailing my car.
Really appreciate your advice. Thank you.

Best regards,
Jefri Lay

Hi Mike, what do you think about the swirls that I have, you can check the picture on MOL thread detailing 101 subject "how to restore my black color car" I cannot upload photos on autogeeonline forum until now. Maybe there is something wrong with the system???... Is it light swirls or the deep one? Thanks in advance for the guidance.

[Mike Phillips]

Is it light swirls or the deep one? Thanks in advance for the guidance.


The swirls in your before picture look very bad and also deep.

I would suggest ordering some Ultimate Compound (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-ultimate-compound.html) and some 5.5" orange foam cutting pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-edge-pads.html) or the new Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction Compound (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-da-compound.html) with some of the Microfiber Cutting Discs. (http://www.autogeek.net/5in-microfiber-cutting-discs.html)

M80 will work if you work a small area at one time and multiple, multiple passes using perfect technique. M84 is the wrong product for what you're trying to do unless you get a rotary buffer and some foam cutting and polishing pads to go with it. If you go this direction you can use the M80 to remove the rotary buffer swirls the M84 will leave behind from the direct drive rotary buffer action.

Test Spot
Dial-in your test Spot. No matter what approach you use, dial in the steps that will make one area look great and then duplicate this over the rest of the car. Don't buff out the entire car until you can prove your system to one area.

Heck, at this point you could just get the Ultimate Compound and rub the car out by hand and get good results. It would take a while because when you're removing swirls by hand you can really only work a small area at one time.


Good luck and we want to see some after pictures when you're finished.

p.s.

Our Gallery works much like the MOL Gallery, you need to upload your photos into the gallery and then you can "insert" them. I do this almost everyday with no problems and have written a few articles that will show you how to do this on the MOL forum and here...

How to upload a photo into your Autogeek Photo Gallery (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-do-different-types-things-ag-discussion-forum/21295-how-upload-photo-into-your-autogeek-photo-gallery.html)

How to insert an image from your photo gallery into your message (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles-discussion-forums/21313-how-insert-image-your-photo-gallery-into-your-message.html)



:xyxthumbs:

[JefriLay]

The swirls in your before picture look very bad and also deep.

I would suggest ordering some Ultimate Compound (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-ultimate-compound.html) and some 5.5" orange foam cutting pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-edge-pads.html) or the new Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction Compound (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-da-compound.html) with some of the Microfiber Cutting Discs. (http://www.autogeek.net/5in-microfiber-cutting-discs.html)

M80 will work if you work a small area at one time and multiple, multiple passes using perfect technique. M84 is the wrong product for what you're trying to do unless you get a rotary buffer and some foam cutting and polishing pads to go with it. If you go this direction you can use the M80 to remove the rotary buffer swirls the M84 will leave behind from the direct drive rotary buffer action.

Test Spot
Dial-in your test Spot. No matter what approach you use, dial in the steps that will make one area look great and then duplicate this over the rest of the car. Don't buff out the entire car until you can prove your system to one area.

Heck, at this point you could just get the Ultimate Compound and rub the car out by hand and get good results. It would take a while because when you're removing swirls by hand you can really only work a small area at one time.


Good luck and we want to see some after pictures when you're finished.

p.s.

Our Gallery works much like the MOL Gallery, you need to upload your photos into the gallery and then you can "insert" them. I do this almost everyday with no problems and have written a few articles that will show you how to do this on the MOL forum and here...

How to upload a photo into your Autogeek Photo Gallery (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-do-different-types-things-ag-discussion-forum/21295-how-upload-photo-into-your-autogeek-photo-gallery.html)

How to insert an image from your photo gallery into your message (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles-discussion-forums/21313-how-insert-image-your-photo-gallery-into-your-message.html)



:xyxthumbs:

Hi Mike,
I'll do some spot test first with M80 and experimenting with M84 followed by M80. if the spot test result is not satisfying then I'll buy the product you've told me :dblthumb2:
Buying the product above is not too difficult in Indonesia but the price is high.
About uploading photos, I got this message after I submit
"Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 67108864 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 16000 bytes) in /home/autogeek/public_html/gallery/image-inc.php on line 116"
and there are 12 files in my queue, I don't know how to remove/delete them.

[JefriLay]

can the polishing pad be washed??

[Mike Phillips]

About uploading photos, I got this message after I submit
"Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 67108864 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 16000 bytes) in /home/autogeek/public_html/gallery/image-inc.php on line 116"
and there are 12 files in my queue, I don't know how to remove/delete them.


Not sure what to tell you about the pictures, I upload pictures everyday and lots of them, just check out this thread...

Pictures from Barrett-Jackson 2010 - Mothers Virtual Power Tour (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/24627-pictures-barrett-jackson-2010-mothers-virtual-power-tour.html)


The articles I included links for are very detailed and address the most common mistakes people make as well as everything else involved. It's actually pretty easy once you do it once. If you can do it on MOL you should be able to do it on our gallery. :xyxthumbs:





can the polishing pad be washed??


Yes. Most people wash their pads under running water or a bucket of water then wring them a little and let them dry.

We offer some dedicated detergents and pad cleaners on the AG store.


:)

[JefriLay]

Not sure what to tell you about the pictures, I upload pictures everyday and lots of them, just check out this thread...

Pictures from Barrett-Jackson 2010 - Mothers Virtual Power Tour (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/24627-pictures-barrett-jackson-2010-mothers-virtual-power-tour.html)


The articles I included links for are very detailed and address the most common mistakes people make as well as everything else involved. It's actually pretty easy once you do it once. If you can do it on MOL you should be able to do it on our gallery. :xyxthumbs:





Yes. Most people wash their pads under running water or a bucket of water then wring them a little and let them dry.

We offer some dedicated detergents and pad cleaners on the AG store.


:)

Okay Mike, I'll check it right away, I myself confuse too..(I can do it on MOL, and do the same on autogeek but the error keep coming... :( ) Thank you for your assistance :xyxthumbs:

I've tried to buy from AG Store but it seemed AG Store cannot send the product to Indonesia, I have sent e-mail twice but I did not get any answer until now. That's why I bought Porter cable in Indonesia which is very pricey (USD 240)