Help with swirls

[slickooz]

I was playing with my Griot's DA and was trying to removes light swirls on my new car. I used 6.5 inch white pads Kompressor 6 inch pads. I first used SwirlX and did a couple passes and they were still there. Then I tried using speed glaze and did couple passes and the swirls were still there. How do I remove all the swirls mark? Do I need more aggressive pads? Or do I need to use some other stuff to get it out? The swirls are only noticeable when direct sun hits it.

[Mike Phillips]

I used 6.5 inch white pads Kompressor 6 inch pads.

I first used SwirlX and did a couple passes and they were still there.

Then I tried using speed glaze and did couple passes and the swirls were still there.




SwirlX is pretty light in cut and so is M80, they have some power but to remove swirls you do need to use really good technique with either of these two products to get good results.

From an article,


The Aggressiveness Order of SMAT Products - This might surprise you! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23583-aggressiveness-order-smat-products-might-surprise-you.html)

Super Micro Abrasive Technology = SMAT
From left to right, the most aggressive to the least aggressive SMAT products
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/828/SMATaggressivenessOrder.jpg


M80 would probably fall in-between the D151 and the SwirlX, maybe the same as D151 all other things being equal but kind of comparing apples to oranges as D151 is SMAT and M80 is DAT


If it were me I would get either some M105 or Ultimate Compound, bot offer a lot more abrading ability but finish out really nice...

If you want you can try the M80 again but technique is key, first lay down a tape-line so you can easily see any affect you're having, like this,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/medium/TapeLine02.jpg



That way you can easily see before and after differences...

Then only work a small section, about 16" to 20" squarish, big picture is when doing your Test Spot to see what you can do with what you have you want to shrink the size of your work area downward.

Then make a series of 6-8 Section passes using a slow Arm Speed, on the 5.0 to 6.0 speed setting, with firm downward pressure but make sure the pad is rotating all the time.

Then wipe off the residue and inspect.

M80 can haze some paints, so if you see any hazing then just wait and get some M105 or Ultimate Compound.

:)

[Mike Phillips]

Here's how to do a "Section Pass" when trying to remove swirls, scratches and other below surface paint defects.


How to do a Section Pass
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q70g83mnTn4]YouTube - How to do a "Section Pass" with a Porter Cable 7424XP[/video]



Visit Autogeek's YouTube Channel for more YouTube Videos (http://www.youtube.com/autogeek)



When talking about machine polishing on discussion forums or even in detailing classes, the below questions always comes up,

What's a pass?
How many passes do I make?
What's a section pass?



The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.

In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.


Factors that affect the buffing cycle include,

Ambient temperature
Surface temperature
Size of work area
Type of machine
Type of pad material
Humidity
Wind or air flow surrounding the car
Amount of product used
Technique



Wet buffing technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind swirls and scratches.


Dry Buffing Technique - Buffing to a dry buff
There are some products on the market where the manufacture recommends buffing the product until it dries. As the product dries you’ll tend to see some dusting as the product residue becomes a powder and the paint will have a hard, dry shine to it.

Although some manufactures recommend this, it’s important to understand what’s taking place at the surface level as you buff to a dry buff. As the product dries, in essence you are losing the lubricating features of the product and as this happens friction and heat will increase. As friction and heat increases, so does the risk of micro-marring the paint or instilling swirls either by the product residue or the pad material and/or a combination of both.

While we trust that the manufacture knows their products best, when we take a close look at what it means to buff on a delicate surface like an automotive clear coat, it doesn’t make sense to run a buffing pad on top of the paint without some kind of wet film to lubricate the paint at the same time. We always recommend that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations and use your own judgment.

Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and taught to others,

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path of travel of the buffer should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing. Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.


UMR
Remember, in most cases the goal is UMR or Uniform Material Removal. The reason for this is so that you remove an equal amount of paint over each section and in turn over the entire car. In order to do this you need a method that you can control and duplicate and for most people following a back and forth, side-to-side pattern works because it’s easy to remember, easy to do and easy to duplicate.


Resources
The above video segment is a 4 minute clip filmed during the extended version of How To Remove Swirls using any Dual Action Polisher like the Meguair's G110v2 (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-dual-action-polisher-g110.html) and the Griot's Garage ROP (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-random-orbital-polisher.html) and all models of he Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher, including the PC7424XP (http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-polishers.html), PC7424, PC7336, G100


How to Remove Swirls using the Porter Cable 7424XP or any D.A. Polisher (http://www.palmbeachmotoring.net/ascg-videos/porter-2-20-10.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Mike Phillips]

Tips & Techniques for using the G110v2, G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20874)
(These are all similar tools)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.





Here's a list of the most common problems

Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
Too much product, too little product.
Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera
The first 4 are the most common.

[slickooz]

I thought using 105 would be too strong for light swirls. Which lake country pads would you suggest I buy to get rid of them? Right now I'm using 6 inch pads and was wondering if 5.5 inch pad would yield better results. I was reading some older post and people loved the combo 105/205. I bought a lot of used stuff from my friend and he had a gallon of 95 and 205.

There are so many different types of pads. Which pads would you suggest for Griot DA? And which pads would you suggest I buy for someone trying to start a detailing business?

[JonMiles]

There are so many different types of pads. Which pads would you suggest for Griot DA? And which pads would you suggest I buy for someone trying to start a detailing business?

Hi Slickooz,

I have been using the GG DA for about 5 months now with the 105/205 combo being my go to combo most the time. Occasionally I will use the Menzerna line.

Anyways, with the 105/205 combo the LC flat pads work better than the CCS IMO. The yellow and orange ones work great with 105 and the white one is a great finisher for the 205. As far as size goes, a 5 1/2" pad is best for larger panels and allows more control than the 6" and larger pads. The smaller pads also cut quicker.

AG has a great offer for the pads where you can pick 6 for 29.99. Lake Country 5 1/2 x 7/8 inch Beveled Edge Pads 6 Pack, foam pad kit, build a kit, buffing pads, curved edge pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-pad-kit.html)

By grabbing 2 of these kits you can be set for a while on pads and successfully remove most defects. In order to run a business you have to be economical and you can't beat that deal. Also, by picking up some Pad Cleaner like the XMT line, you can keep your pads in good shape and they will last longer.

For removing swirls on curves and smaller areas, you can get some 4" pads and a backing plate for a great price. Lake Country 4 Inch CCS Pads 6 Pack - Your Choice! (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-ccs-pack.html)

One thing if planning on running a business where paint correction is your main service, you may want to learn to be proficient with a rotary and wetsanding. By mastering these 2 trades, you will be able to remove almost all defects and make a lot of money doing it.

[slickooz]

Hi Slickooz,

I have been using the GG DA for about 5 months now with the 105/205 combo being my go to combo most the time. Occasionally I will use the Menzerna line.

Anyways, with the 105/205 combo the LC flat pads work better than the CCS IMO. The yellow and orange ones work great with 105 and the white one is a great finisher for the 205. As far as size goes, a 5 1/2" pad is best for larger panels and allows more control than the 6" and larger pads. The smaller pads also cut quicker.

AG has a great offer for the pads where you can pick 6 for 29.99. Lake Country 5 1/2 x 7/8 inch Beveled Edge Pads 6 Pack, foam pad kit, build a kit, buffing pads, curved edge pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-pad-kit.html)

By grabbing 2 of these kits you can be set for a while on pads and successfully remove most defects. In order to run a business you have to be economical and you can't beat that deal. Also, by picking up some Pad Cleaner like the XMT line, you can keep your pads in good shape and they will last longer.

For removing swirls on curves and smaller areas, you can get some 4" pads and a backing plate for a great price. Lake Country 4 Inch CCS Pads 6 Pack - Your Choice! (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-ccs-pack.html)

One thing if planning on running a business where paint correction is your main service, you may want to learn to be proficient with a rotary and wetsanding. By mastering these 2 trades, you will be able to remove almost all defects and make a lot of money doing it.

Thank you Jon Miles. I have a friend who wants his car detailed. He has an Acura TL. I told him 140 for a Full detail, and he said that was too much. So I then reply I'll do a car wash, clay and wax for 85. And he agreed to let me do it next week. Going to do a quick vacuum inside and dress his tires. I gave him the price of 85 dollar figuring it would at most take about 4 hours. Product used prob about 8 bucks. Could I have asked for more? Or is this a fair price? He will be my first paid customer, I hope everything goes good. I did couple family and friends cars and they all liked it. Prob a good thing he didn't want a full detailing which includes removing swirls and stuff because I couldn't even do it on my new car.

I recently bought a lot of stuff from a friend who quit detailing to becoming a pro poker player, so I got his stuff for a good price. I'm going order the pads and 5 inch back plate asap because I want to start practicing before it gets too cold.

I have M95 instead of the 105, I read its almost the same thing. I have a new Acura TSX and it already has swirl marks on the hood, very light but noticeable in the sun. Would the combo 95/205 cause more damage then fixing it?

[JonMiles]

Thank you Jon Miles. I have a friend who wants his car detailed. He has an Acura TL. I told him 140 for a Full detail, and he said that was too much. So I then reply I'll do a car wash, clay and wax for 85. And he agreed to let me do it next week. Going to do a quick vacuum inside and dress his tires. I gave him the price of 85 dollar figuring it would at most take about 4 hours. Product used prob about 8 bucks. Could I have asked for more? Or is this a fair price? He will be my first paid customer, I hope everything goes good. I did couple family and friends cars and they all liked it. Prob a good thing he didn't want a full detailing which includes removing swirls and stuff because I couldn't even do it on my new car.

I recently bought a lot of stuff from a friend who quit detailing to becoming a pro poker player, so I got his stuff for a good price. I'm going order the pads and 5 inch back plate asap because I want to start practicing before it gets too cold.

I have M95 instead of the 105, I read its almost the same thing. I have a new Acura TSX and it already has swirl marks on the hood, very light but noticeable in the sun. Would the combo 95/205 cause more damage then fixing it?

If the swirls are light you will be able to remove them with just 205. The Acura paint is overall pretty soft and easy to correct.

As far as pricing goes, 85 for a wash,clay, and wax along with interior clean up is fair. It should take about 2-2.5 hours tops. Use your DA for wax application to make the work faster and get really nice results.

140 for swirl removal is pretty cheap. For a 1 step polish and wax I charge 150 for small cars. For 2 steps or more its more like 250-300 for the work. Once you figure out how long things take to do, you can base your prices to get a desired hourly rate. My personal rate is about 40-50 an hour and that allows me to cover chemicals, insurance, fuel etc with relative ease and still have 30 an hour left over.

[slickooz]

Thanks for the advise. Whats the difference between the flat and the ccs?

[JonMiles]

It's just a preference. Flat pads are flat, and CCS have little craters on them. I just feel like the flat pads move a little more smoothly and don't gum up as much as the CCS.

Both cut equally well.

[BobbyG]

I thought using 105 would be too strong for light swirls. Which lake country pads would you suggest I buy to get rid of them? Right now I'm using 6 inch pads and was wondering if 5.5 inch pad would yield better results. I was reading some older post and people loved the combo 105/205. I bought a lot of used stuff from my friend and he had a gallon of 95 and 205.

There are so many different types of pads. Which pads would you suggest for Griot DA? And which pads would you suggest I buy for someone trying to start a detailing business?

Meguiar's M105 is a great choice for removing swirls. M105 will remove swirls and sanding scratches down to about 1200 - 1500 grit.

If you are still seeing swirls then you might need something just a bit stronger. Pad choice here may also help.

I typically use a product such as Meguiar's M105 with a Yellow or Orange Lake Country flat pad. The 5 1/2 size on these machines are right at home and seem to work well according to many reviews here. I also use these on my Porter Cable 7424 with good success.

Lake Country 5 1/2 x 7/8 inch Beveled Edge Pads 6 Pack, foam pad kit, build a kit, buffing pads, curved edge pads (http://www.autogeek.net/lake-country-beveled-pad-kit.html)

[Rooddy]

Hi all, I am new to this whole buffing thing and could use some expert advise. I recently pulled my 1998 Chevy pickup out of storage ( it had been parked for about 5 years) and wanted to spiff up the paint job. Overall the paint was in good condition, just a little oxidation and swirls. I purchased most my products from AG, Pinnacle compounds, CCS Smartpads and a Makita 9227C polisher, here are the steps I took following the online video instructions here on AG. I started out with the yellow pad and Turtlewax rubbing compound Then I used the yellow pad and Turtlewax polishing compound. Then I used the orange pad with the polishing compound. Next the white pad and Pinnacle fine swirl remover, then grey pad and Pinnacle Ultra fine swirl remover, then the blue pad and Pinnacle Carnauba finishing glaze. The paint looks great, I get compliments all the time for a 12 year old truck. But when I have it parked in the garage under the lights, I can still see fine marks, not swirl marks necessarly, but more like a spiderweb. I have tried test spots with various combinations pads and swirl removers with no better results What can I do to get rid of these?
I guess I could be perfectly content with the results, as the old truck looks great and no one but me notices them. But after all those hours of work I expected better results. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[slickooz]

I have read somewhere that you shouldn't use rubbing compound with a buffer. I would def try Meguiar's 105 and 205. 105 is for stronger stuff and use orange pad, and use 205 for swirls with a white pad from Lake Country. A lot of people here love that combo and it seems to work real well.

[dougaross]

I have read somewhere that you shouldn't use rubbing compound with a buffer. I would def try Meguiar's 105 and 205. 105 is for stronger stuff and use orange pad, and use 205 for swirls with a white pad from Lake Country. A lot of people here love that combo and it seems to work real well.
:iagree: