Need help with black Corvette

[tuscarora dave]

Hi AG members. About a week ago or so I posted a thread about a black Corvette that I would be doing a paint correction on. Here's the link to the thread.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/29672-1000-hp-lingenfelter-corvette.html

This is the first newer Corvette that I have worked on and I am having a bit of trouble getting the desired results. I thought before getting real aggressive with this thing maybe I should appeal to the more Corvette experienced members here for some thoughts and suggestions.

This car is for a new client who will be feeding me a steady supply of work depending on the outcome of this project. He and I are both willing to take the time to get the results on this project without rushing things. He is a very understanding guy as far as that goes.

A little history on the car.

First let me correct the title of my original thread and say that I misunderstood what the client was saying when he said "basically it is set up like a Lingenfelter as far as the performance mods are concerned" so this is not a "Ling" as the posters on my original thread already stated. The client bought this car with under 20,000 miles on it and it was already in this rough condition when the purchase was made. Given the low miles on the car and the condition of it when he purchased the car, that leads me to believe that this car hasn't had a paint correction done to it before. I do not have a paint thickness gauge.

My concerns and questions.

This is certainly the hardest paint that I have ever worked with. I have read the warnings about this but didn't realize that it would be this hard. I have read some threads where the poster had wet sanded or damp sanded these cars before the buffing was done and I want to avoid having to do this. I also wanted to avoid using a wool pad and a real aggressive compound to insure that I would not be leaving any buffer trails behind but now I am thinking that the wool pad can not be avoided.

In the lighting that I had it had appeared that I was getting the desired results when I did my test section so I ran with it.

What I have already done.

Wash, IPA wipedown, Clay,

Makita rotary, Menzerna Power Gloss, orange LC CCS 5.5 pad, 3 section passes @ speed setting 3.5 (about 2000 PRM) I did this twice on all panels so actually 6 section passes total.

Makita rotary, Optimum Polish 2, white 6 inch Edge 2K finishing pad, 3 section passes @ speed setting 3.5 (about 2000 RPM)

Flex 3401, Optimum finish polish, Red LC VC finising pad, 3 section passes @ speed setting 6 (full speed)

While there has been a significant improvement in the finish we are still left with a lot of scratches that have not been removed. I am not talking about RIDS but overall scratches. I know that Power Gloss is an aggressive diminishing abrasive compound but I really thought it would have had more effect than what it did.

I am getting back to this car on Sunday to work out the required process to achieve the desired results. I have Menz. PG, Megs 105 and some sand in a bottle type of heavy compound equivalent to 3M super duty rubbing compound. I have wool pads, yellow foam cutting pads, orange light cutting pads. I am thinking now that I should hit it with the heavy compound and a wool pad then follow that with orange light cutting pad and M-105 then finish out with the Optimum Polish 2 on a Polishing pad.

Is this just normal on these Corvettes that it should take so much to get the desired results? I can't imagine trying to correct this paint with just a PC.

OK, so you more experienced Corvette paint correctors let me have your thoughts, oppinions or suggestions if you will. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this and for any suggestions that you might offer. TD

[C. Charles Hahn]

Yeah, this is very normal for a C5/C6. Normally they respond alright via rotary but this car looks to be in about as bad a condition as I've come across -- certainly worse than any 'vette I've had to work on.

I think you're on the right track with your thoughts; though I would actually start with M105 or PG on wool in a test spot before going all the way up to the bottle of gravel you've got.

If you had some Surbuf pads or even a PFW it would probably finish out better after the first step than it will with wool -- I get pretty good results with Surbuf/M105 on the Flex 3401 -- but in a pinch the wool will get the job done (I'm personally just not a fan of wool pads).

[Al D]

I'm in no way an expert, but I have an 06 red Vette.
I am seriously picky about the finish.
I can speak for my one effort only.
The Meg 105 with my flex, took out just about everything but actual scratches.
I polished those scratches till the cows came home and they wouldn't come out.
I used some 3000 grit lightly and then polished out the sandpaper scratches with the 105. I have some rougher abrasives from 3M than the 105, but I didn't mind wet sanding the few scratches.
That's what worked for me.

[ScottB]

I find the ceramiclear polish line from Menzerna (SIP, Nano, 085rd) actually work better, versus the standard Menzerna polishes, on the Vette clearcoat.

[bodavenport]

The last vette I worked on was hammered and it took sur-buffs and Megs UC to get the first step where I wanted it. I prefer UC over 105 but that is just me two cents

[Mike Phillips]

This is certainly the hardest paint that I have ever worked with.



When I first joined CorvetteForum back in 2002, all the talk about paint was about how soft it was?

Back then there was a lot of confusion over scratch-sensitive and soft or hard paint. Modern Corvettes tend to have very hard clear coats but they still scratch easily, so it's common for people to think because the paint scratches easily that the paint is soft when in the case of newer Corvettes this just isn't the case, the paint is actually very hard but... it still scratches really easily.

This has all been straightened out over the years though...





While there has been a significant improvement in the finish we are still left with a lot of scratches that have not been removed. I am not talking about RIDS but overall scratches.



Here's where you try adjusting your approach...

The Graphic Equalizer Analogy to Polishing Paint (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/29315-graphic-equalizer-analogy-polishing-paint.html)




Mike Pennington, the Director of Training for Meguiar's, gave me this analogy a long time ago so I want to give him credit for it because it's a good analogy BUT you have to be old enough to remember Graphic Equalizers.

Graphic Equalizers
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/GraphicEqualizer01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/GraphicEqualizer02.jpg


The analogy being that you can adjust your pad, product, tool and technique just like you can adjust music using a graphic equalizer and when everything is dialed-in perfect for the paint you're working on you'll get the results you're looking for.

It does mean sometimes playing around a little to find the perfect combination of products and procedures kind of like adjusting a graphic equalizer for a single song so it sounds perfect to your ears.

When everything is right... you'll make beautiful music or in this case you create a show car finish.

Of course in order to experiment it means you need to have more than one product in your arsenal of detailing products.

Usually, a good compound, a couple of polishes with correction ability, a finishing polish and some LSP's, this could include cleaner/waxes and finishing waxes.

Clay, Car Wash, Microfiber Towels and if you work by machine then a variety of buffing pads and if you work by hand then a variety of hand applicator pads.


:xyxthumbs:



If your goal is as close to perfection as possible, in other words you want to take the finish on this Corvette to its maximum potential (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/27081-taking-your-car-s-paint-s-maximum-potential.html), then try two things,


In keeping with the Graphic Equalize analogy,

Get some M105 or some M95 and an aggressive wool cutting pad and try buffing a panel again and then inspect your results.

The Super Microscopic Abrasive Technology, (SMAT), used in these two products is very effective at cutting fast and finishing out almost LSP ready. M105 and M95 are rated at pulling out down to #1200 Grit Sanding Marks in a body shop situation. I included the words, body shop situation because there's a window of time after paint is freshly sprayed that it's still wet and easier to sand and buff. By the word "wet" I don't mean gooey wet, like liquid, but still easily sanded and buffed. This is usually with in a few days.

Just want to make the point that removing #1200 Grit Sanding Marks out of fresh paint is easier than removing #1200 Grit Sanding Marks out of factory baked-on paint so there's no confusion over that can be done and what shouldn't be done. :D


Give the above a try and let us know if it works.


The next approach would be to dampsand the paint using Meguiar's foam backed Unigrit finishing disc. We carry these at Autogeek and they work phenomenally well. I'm also a give fan of the Abralon sanding and finishing Discs and Abralon goes up to #4000 grit.

Now this approach gets risky because paint is thin on factory finishes, BUT if you're very careful you can dampsand the finish, remove enough paint to level the surface and knock out the majority of swirls and scratches and then easily remove your fine sanding marks going back to the wool pad and compound.

Somewhere in this really long article on the topic I discuss the benefits to dampsanding to remove swirls and scratches versus the traditional hard chopping that is traditionally done using a wool pad and an aggressive cutting compound.

Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/25915-damp-sanding-tools-tips-techniques-mike-phillips.html)

Here it is...




The theory or idea behind using high quality, Unigrit sanding and finishing discs is that while it adds a step, it saves time over all because it enables you to remove the defects faster by requiring less passes with your rotary buffer. This reduces heat, enabling you to buff cooler and also reduces swirls.

With Unigrit Sanding and Finishing Discs, you have control over the depth of the sanding marks thus you have more control over the compounding step.

Without sanding, when trying to remove swirls and scratches, you have know idea how deep the defects are so you have less control over the compounding process.




Sanding with #3000 is really non-aggressive as compared to lower grits or aggressive compounds and even on a factory Corvette finish, you can remove these shallow sanding marks pretty easily.

The biggest issue is thin paint and time...

That's where you an the owner discuss the above options, the owner comes to the understanding that factory thin and hard paint is not your doing and if getting a show car finish is important to him then he either agrees to let you proceed with some kind of release of liability do the best you can and he gets to live with an intact factory clear coat with some swirls and scratches.

Honestly, I think you can remove the majority of below surface defects except for the RIDS using either of the approaches above.


Looking forward to reading about your success and seeing the pictures...


:dblthumb2:

[bimmersales]

Dave, I have worked with Dana on several vettes and the best results for defect removal is either a 3M wool pad with 105 or some of the white Kompressor pads with 105. He showed me a few tricks with the 105 and Kompressor pads. Menzerna SIP isn't going to touch the defects in the vette's hard clear coat. I noticed Dana did reply to your post on L2D also to try and help out.

[2K4CE]

So far the best thing I've ever used on a Corvette is surbuf + meguiars 105.

I just only got the surbufs today from AG.

This part of the car hasn't even ever been washed since its 2" off the ground. So I washed it and this is after 2 passes with surbuf + 105 on a UDM (7424 clone) at speed 6 with moderate pressure applied.

http://sky92x.com/detailing/surbuf/nose_b.jpg

http://sky92x.com/detailing/surbuf/nose_a.jpg


A few more passes would take out the stragglers... But this combo seems to work quite well with a mere DA and vette clear.

[tuscarora dave]

Thanks to all of you for your helpful replies. From all the replies that I have read on the different forums I am of the belief that the Power gloss was breaking down rather quickly on this hard paint and believe that I should have had better lighting and been concentrating on using the M-105 instead. I will be going with the 3M wool and 105 on a new test section tomorrow and give UC a shot to clean up the marks from the wool pad. I'll post up a few pics of what the paint looks like now.

[tuscarora dave]

OK here's where we were before I started polishing.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/073-1.jpg


And here where we are at after all the polishing that I listed in my initial post in this thread.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/107.jpg

[tuscarora dave]

OK I made some progress today. I did the M-105 step today and it's coming around. I can only work on it when the shop is open so I only got 5 actual polishing hours in today. I'll go back in the morning to do the M-205 step and hopefully get the LSP on it. Here's a couple of pics of today's progress.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/006-10.jpg
http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/013-11.jpg

Thanks to all of you that helped me out with your thoughts and suggestions. I put the wool pad out of my vocabulary for this job and went with a foam polishing pad instead. Wool would have been working backwards is what I found out after a test section with the foam pad.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

OK I made some progress today. I did the M-105 step today and it's coming around. I can only work on it when the shop is open so I only got 5 actual polishing hours in today. I'll go back in the morning to do the M-205 step and hopefully get the LSP on it. Here's a couple of pics of today's progress.

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/006-10.jpg
http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/tuscaroradave/013-11.jpg

Thanks to all of you that helped me out with your thoughts and suggestions. I put the wool pad out of my vocabulary for this job and went with a foam polishing pad instead. Wool would have been working backwards is what I found out after a test section with the foam pad.
Glad it's coming along, Dave. What foam pad did you end up using with M105?

[tuscarora dave]

Thanks Mark, I used a white LC Variable Contact 5.5" for Flex Polishers from Poorboy's but on the Makita rotary.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Thanks Mark, I used a white LC Variable Contact 5.5" for Flex Polishers from Poorboy's but on the Makita rotary.
I'm surprised a white pad could do what it did. Nice job! :props: