Didn't quite work, next step

[jonn127]

I just got done with my dads car (first detail) and didn't quite get the results I wanted. I feel like I used adequate product and Pad pressure. I used the WG Total Swirl Remover with an orange pad. My question is what should be my next step to try to get the results I want, do I need to step up compounds or try a pad with more cut next? Or both?

[JonMiles]

Did you remove the defects but leave marring, or did you not reach the defects?

If the later you will need to step up aggressiveness, if the first you can follow up with FG and a lighter cut (white pad) to finish out.

With the TSR, there should be adequate cut to remove most minor defects, but deeper scratches and other problems may require some heavy compound and a rotary to remove. Feathersanding with 3000g may also be an option.

What machine are you using? What kind of problems are you trying to remove?

[Mike Phillips]

I just got done with my dads car (first detail) and didn't quite get the results I wanted.



You're talking about your "Test Spot", that is you tried out the products and process to just one small area and found out it didn't work to one small area and now you want to dial in a new approach.

You didn't buff out the ENTIRE car only to find out that your choice of product and process PLUS your skills and abilities didn't work.

Don't tell me this is yet another thread where you found out your process didn't work AFTER buffing out the entire car?

(As I cross my fingers while waiting for the reply)


Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot
Test Spot


There's such an important reason to do a Test Spot and that's to make sure you get the results you want by only working on a small area BEFORE tackling the entire car.

Even I do a Test Spot on EVERY car I work on that I've never previously worked on.


:D

[Mike Phillips]

I just got done with my dads car (first detail) and didn't quite get the results I wanted.



What are you working on?
What condition is the paint in?
How are you doing your work? (By hand or machine, and if by machine which machine?)
See the last tip in this new article,

A tip to help yourself get great answers when you start a thread (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tips-techniques-how-articles-interacting-discussion-forums/29344-tip-help-yourself-get-great-answers-when-you-start-thread.html)



And one more teeny, tiny tip...

In your post, include what you're working on.

Sounds like common sense but believe it or not many people start thread, ask questions and never mention what they're working on.





I feel like I used adequate product and Pad pressure. I used the WG Total Swirl Remover with an orange pad.


Well technique is everything, the most common mistakes are outlined in this article I wrote on MOL in 2007

Tips & Techniques for using the G110v2, G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20874)

(These are all similar tools)

After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.






Here's a list of the most common problems
Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
Too much product, too little product.
Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,
Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera
The first 4 are the most common.




My question is what should be my next step to try to get the results I want, do I need to step up compounds or try a pad with more cut next? Or both?



Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover is not in the same category as a compound, it's a medium duty "Swirl Mark Remover", that is a product for removing moderate to light swirls or for removing swirls and haze AFTER a true compound has been used.

If you feel after reading the above you did everything right, then pick up a bottle of M105 or Ultimate Compound and use this with either a orange light cutting foam pad or even a polishing pad to a TEST SPOT.

Dial in a process that works GREAT to one small area and once you dial in a process that works GREAT to one small area, then you'll have the confidence to tackle the ENTIRE car and be assured that you'll get great results over the entire car.

Make sense?


:)

[jonn127]

lol, never fear, it was a test spot, but did everything else I could on the rest of the car. Car is in pretty bad shape, had an impression of a leaf on the hood for goodness sakes. AFter looking at it more, it may have been wishful thinking for WG TSR to get the job done?

[JonMiles]

That looks rough, i'd suggest getting someone with a PTG to take some reading for you. You are going to need to take some serious clear off to get some of those rids out.

[Rob T]

lol, never fear, it was a test spot, but did everything else I could on the rest of the car. Car is in pretty bad shape, had an impression of a leaf on the hood for goodness sakes. AFter looking at it more, it may have been wishful thinking for WG TSR to get the job done?

You will need a compound such as M105.

[Mike Phillips]

lol, never fear, it was a test spot, but did everything else I could on the rest of the car. Car is in pretty bad shape, had an impression of a leaf on the hood for goodness sakes. AFter looking at it more, it may have been wishful thinking for WG TSR to get the job done?

To make it easier for everyone to see... I downloaded you picture and then uploaded it to your gallery here on AG and here it is inserted, instead of attached...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/dadscar.jpg




You will need a compound such as M105.


I agree, you'll need a compound. Jon mentioned getting a Paint Thickness Gauge to measure the thickness of the paint which is a good idea but if you just work careful and don't try to remove all the deepest swirls and scratches you should be okay.

I always ask myself,

How did the paint get this bad in the first place?

And if whatever or whoever that caused the problems hasn't changed then chances are the finish is just going to go back to this condition over time and if that's the case then it's really not worth trying to remove all the swirls and scratches in the first place.

You can decide that.

Also, besides a compound, maybe pick up a pack of Surbuf pads, either 5.5" or 6.5", which ever fits your current backing plate, the staff in customer care can help you with that.


1-800-869-3011

:)

[Palani]

After I washed and clayed and wash again my 2004 Honda, I did a test spot using Wolfgang TSR 3.0, Poorboys SSR 2.5 and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound with a LC orange pad and the PC 7424XP. Before I started, I watched Mike's DVD a few times to make sure I use the correct technique. To my disappointment the scratches are still there. I am going to try Megs 105 and follow up with Megs 205 and hope I get better results.

[Mike Phillips]

I did a test spot using Wolfgang TSR 3.0, Poorboys SSR 2.5 and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound with a LC orange pad and the PC 7424XP.

Before I started, I watched Mike's DVD a few times to make sure I use the correct technique. To my disappointment the scratches are still there.


All three of the products you listed will at a minimum remove light and shallow scratches, the Ultimate Compound will go after some pretty deep scratches within reason.

Without more detail on your part I would guess that after machine polishing with any of the above, the area you worked on looked dramatically much better? That is all the shallow swirls and scratches were removed? Correct?

This would be the norm and really easy to tell if you placed a single strip of tape on the finish and then only worked on one side of it like this.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/796/medium/TapeLine02.jpg



If I'm right about what I wrote above, then the scratches you're seeing are what we call RIDS or Random, Isolated, Deeper Scratches.


RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/24045-rids-definition-rids-story-behind-term.html)

Here's an excerpt for the above article...



RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

RIDS
Random Isolated Deeper Scratches. These type of scratches come from normal wear & tear and there is no pattern to them. RIDS are like Tracers in that they are deeper scratches that show up after the shallow scratches have first been removed through a machine or hand buffing process, usually with a compound or paint cleaner. After the shallow swirls and scratches have been removed, any deeper scratches that remain will now show up like a Sore-Thumb to your eyes because there are no longer thousands of lighter, more shallow scratches camouflaging them.




When do RIDS Show Up?
As mentioned above in my accounting of a story that plays itself out with almost ever customer and most if not all detailing classes, RIDS show up after you perform the first cleaning or compounding step.

In most cases, and especially if the paint has been neglected or abused, the paint will be filled with hundreds of thousands of light or shallow swirls and scratches. At this point, when you look at the paint you don't really see the RIDS because the are masked or camouflaged by the hundreds of thousands of deeper scratches.

AFTER you compound or use some type of paint cleaner or cleaner/polish over the paint, then wipe off the residue... then the RIDS show up.

This isn't always true for all RIDS as deeper RIDS will show up easily to your eyes even when surrounded by hundreds of swirls, like this... note the straight-line scratches in a few random directions included in the mass cobweb swirls throughout the paint.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_029.jpg


After you remove the majority of shallow swirls, scratches and other below surface defects out of the paint and then wipe-off the residue and inspect the paint, now that the zillions of shallow defects will have been removed, the only defects left will be the random, isolated deeper scratches and because there's no longer zillions of swirls and scratches surrounding the deeper scratches they stand out like a sore-thumb and are easy to see.


Random
The reason I used the word random is because they are random, and this is an important distinction because sometimes people confuse RIDS with other types of below surface defects, for example, sometimes people will refer to Tracers and RIDS but this isn't accurate.

Tracers are, or at least should be, scratches in the paint that are all in a straight line going in the direction a person was moving their hand when wet-sanding.

RIDS are instilled through normal, wear-n-tear from a car being used as a daily driver and as such, deeper scratches are instilled in hap-hazard, random ways, thus the choice of the word Random.


Isolated
This just means they're usually by themselves, not a part of a group or pattern of scratches or below surface defects


Deeper
This is kind of obvious but RIDS is about the deeper scratches that don't come out during the first and sometimes second or even third compounding or correction step because they're just too deep to be removed safely. At this point you need to learn to live with them or educate your customer that they are too deep to remove safely and they either need to learn to live with them or consider their other options, like having the affected panel or the entire car re-painted.


Scratches
RIDS are mostly about the deeper scratches that remain after the compounding and/or polishing steps but it could also include any deeper defects that are not removed such as Type II Water Spot Etchings, Tracers, Pigtails, etc., basically anything that remains after you've made the decision you've worked a panel as much as you're going to work it and anything that hasn't bee removed is not going to be removed. (At least by you).


That's the story behind the term RIDS; I've seen people type it RDS and leave out the letter "i" but it's technically RIDS






I am going to try Megs 105 and follow up with Megs 205 and hope I get better results.

M105 may be a tick more aggressive than Ultimate Compound and might give you a tick better results than the UC, but if what you're talking about are RIDS then unless this is a show car you might be better off learning to live with the remaining scratches and by doing so leave more clear paint on the surface to protect the underlying basecoat and to last over the service life of the car.

But give it a try and update us as to your results.


:)