Layering tests...

[yeebiz]

I have seen many test where people will do side by side comparisons of different products on their cars.

I haven't run across any information about testing one product with one layer vs multiple layers on the same car. I was wondering if anyone has done any tests like that.

I wanted to know how layering effects looks and durability.

From my limited experience I think I can see a visual difference with layering a product. I would like to know if it increases durability also.

Any thoughts?

[XB70]

I was taught to always apply two layers of a Last Step Product to ensure complete coverage. If I have time, I wait for the first application of a sealant to cure before applying the second, but I do not obsess over it.


I do not understand those who apply multiple coats of a wax or sealant claiming better gloss/shine or even protection with 5 coats opposed to say 2 coats.

A layer of wax/sealant is only a few microns thick. Applying a second layer is a mechanical, abraiding (on a microscopic level) process. Rubbing the first layer of wax/sealant (after it has cured) with a microfiber or foam applicator has to take some of the original layer off, especially if the fresh product dissolves some of the first layer.

Many recommend a second application of Last Step product to remove the left overs of a first layer that was put on too thick and became difficult to buff off (dried residue). I can only assume this technique works because the second layer of wax/sealant dissolves the first.

I do not believe it is possible to build up a layers or stack layers of wax/sealant one on top of the other even if the product has no cleaners or abrasives in it. Even if it were possible, each layer would suffer greatly from diminishing returns.

MY SAMPLE SIZE = 1 LAYERING EXPERIMENT:

Last year, I "Meguiared" my F250 for winter with M80 polish and M21 versionon 1.0 sealant. After the initial two for complete coverage coats, I waited 12 hours and applied another coat, waited another 12 for layer 4 and another 12 for layer 5.

I am fully aware that M21 sealant has some fillers and polish in it. Each layer looked better and better, but I thought about what was going on. Was I really stacking the layers? Probably not. Each successive layer polished out the paint a tiny bit more, flattening the surface to increase gloss. The shine looked better and better. After 5 layers, my white truck glowed! Do I think I had 5 layers of M21 on it? No.

I applied several coats of Meguiar's M26 wax (no fillers / cleaners) on top of M21 on my mustang with similar results. I do not think I have 5 layers of M26 on my car. I think each successive layer dissolved part of the previous and more was scrubbed of by the applicator. I believe multiple layers of M26 look better because even though it has no fillers or cleaners, the mechanical action of finishing pad on my orbital polisher continued to fine-polish the surface removing more and more microscopic imperfections with every layer. Not as much as layers of M21 with some cleaner/polish in it, but some nevertheless.

I think polishing the paint 5 times with finer and finer polish (like M83 followed by M80, followed by M82 followed by two more finer and finer polish topped with two coats of wax/sealant would look like M80 followed by five layers of wax/sealant.

My ramblings on layering apply only to coats put on after cure time. Not an extra coat every week or two as the elements and washings would destroy part of the previous existing layer before the next.

But.... the paint on my F250 made it through a tough winter only being hosed off two or three times with flying colors. When I finally washede the truck in spring, two neighbors thought I just waxed it.

So, even though I do not believe I can stack layers of Last Step Product on my paint, I'll be layering M21 four or five times when I prep my truck for winter in three or four weeks. I don't know what gave me the all-winter performance from M21 sealant last winter, but I' not about to change one thing during this winter!

[Dubbin1]

Somewhere on another forum a member did a test in a lab. The results showed that after 2 layers he started to loose the thickness of the wax.

[Rsurfer]

Somewhere on another forum a member did a test in a lab. The results showed that after 2 layers he started to loose the thickness of the wax.I saw that and it confirms that anything more then 2 coats is a waste of time and product. I tired spit shinning applying about 7 layers and saw no noticeable difference.

[tuscarora dave]

I wonder if one could effectively layer Opti-Coat?

[zliegen]

Every product that I can think of has a carrier or solvent in it to help you apply the carnauba or sealant, whichever you are using, to the surface. That carrier is either chemically or physically removed after the product is applied to leave the protection on your paint. 2 layers IMO simply helps to get even coverage. After two layers the carriers in the wax/sealant are simply re-dissolving the active ingredient that is already laid down on your paint. That is why it's not getting any thicker after two layers. The only way you could have it get thicker with every layer is if the carrier was saturated with the product that its laying down, so that no more product on the surface can be dissolved into the carrier.

/End Chemistry 101

Edit:

Thinking into this some more, its possible maybe that you could layer a sealant like UPGP or Opti-Seal. Supposedly these types of sealants cross-link after curing on the surface, this may help prevent being re-dissolved by the carrier when additional layers are applied. I'm no chemist however, it sure would be nice if one of the chemists in the field would provide some information on this.

[lawrenceSA]

Somewhere on another forum a member did a test in a lab. The results showed that after 2 layers he started to loose the thickness of the wax.

I tried searching for this thread but cannot find.

Please would someone be so kind as to post the link.

Thanks in advance

[Nomadsto]

i struggled with these kinds of thoughts for a long time, maybe 1 more coat of this or layer of that. I'm by no means a chemist, or anything close, so I took a more philosophical look @ the issue. The truth is I'm a little obsessed with this stuff (as you may be as well) and if layering any one product over and over again was beneficial it would say so in the directions. But then again would you buy a product that required 4 or 5 layers to get a good result? Also if i'm a manufacturer and I make an easy to use 1 step product, but some of my customers want to use more than they need.... All i'm saying is be careful not to over think it.

[Guessless]

I tried searching for this thread but cannot find.

Please would someone be so kind as to post the link.

Thanks in advance
Not sure if I can post a link to an outside forum without breaking AGO rules, but here is the quote I had saved from that thread a while ago.If it's not breaking rules, then I can dig up the thread and post the link here.


Continued from a previous thread on thickness of wax layers. Note, I don't make any claims about effectiveness, I am only measuring the thickness!

Thanks to *******, I have a large selection of waxes and also sealants to test, so I have started a new thread. Here are a few results from the last three days.

Testing as before, applying coatings to clean 6" silicon wafers.
20 random spots were measured to give some statistical significance to the results.
Below I quote the average thickness and the standard deviation (sd). The standard deviation gives an indication of the spread in the results.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................
***** Vintage (4 coats applied at 24 hours intervals)

Wax applied with microfibre, hazed and lightly buffed with clean microfibre cloth.
Thickness after first application = 25.6 nm; sd = 2.5 nm
Thickness after second application = 26.3 nm; sd = 3.2 nm
Thickness after third application = 24.9 nm; sd = 1.9 nm
Fourth layer applied by hand.
Thickness after fourth application = 27.4 nm; sd = 1.7 nm

Because of the spread in the results, as given by the standard deviation, you can't read anything into the small differences in thickness.
This seems to show, once again, that you can't layer wax.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

*****seal

This gave me some problems at first, not having used the product before, because of the difficulty in applying a thin enough initial layer to the relatively small 6" wafer (compared to a car panel).
First attempts were definitely too thick, giving strong interference fringes on the smooth silicon wafer that changed rather dramatically as the product dried (very slowly).
The end results were very patchy. After advice from *****, I then cut down the amount of product to no more than one drop, applied with a 1" square of microfibre cloth.
This easily spread over the whole surface of the wafer and dried to a haze-free finish in a few minutes. Again, 20 random spots were measured.
Coats applied at 24 hours intervals

Thickness after first application = 17.3 nm; sd = 1.2 nm
Thickness after second application = 16.6 nm; sd = 1.1 nm

Again, no evidence of layering being possible.

An even smaller amount applied to a different wafer:-

Thickness after first application = 21.9 nm; sd = 2.3 nm


.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

***8

This was applied lightly with a 1" square of microfibre cloth but it did not spread evenly over the wafer surface.
Whereas the *****sealobviously wetted the surface, this almost seemed to be like trying to rub water into the surface.
I wasn't too surprised by the results below (as yet, only one layer applied).

Thickness after first application = 4.9 nm; sd = 1.4 nm

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

Red*****

This product was much more like *****seal, wetting the surface and spreading easily. Not easy to wipe off, so maybe too much applied.

Thickness after first application = 22.1 nm; sd = 0.7 nm (a very uniform film!)

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[FUNX650]

I tried searching for this thread but cannot find.

Please would someone be so kind as to post the link.

Thanks in advance
It can be found in several AGO forum links.
Here's one of them: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/52831-multiple-coats-wax.html

Bob

[Desertnate]

While not a direct head-to-head, here is something I documented this past Spring.

The original test was single coats of 845 vs Klasse SG. However, I did throw in a quick comment and pictures showing the Klasse SG test vehicle vs one of my other vehicles that received a double coat of the SG. The pictures are found on page 5, post #43 here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/71873-head-head-cage-match-klasse-sg-vs-collinite-845-a-5.html

From that "un-official" test last winter, I found a significant difference between the double coated car vs the single after the same length of time over the winter. I doubt I'd ever go more than two coats, but I think I've experienced enough to make two coats worth the effort.

[FUNX650]

While not a direct head-to-head, here is something I documented this past Spring.

The original test was single coats of 845 vs Klasse SG. However, I did throw in a quick comment and pictures showing the Klasse SG test vehicle vs one of my other vehicles that received a double coat of the SG. The pictures are found on page 5, post #43 here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/71873-head-head-cage-match-klasse-sg-vs-collinite-845-a-5.html

From that "un-official" test last winter, I found a significant difference between the double coated car vs the single after the same length of time over the winter. I doubt I'd ever go more than two coats, but I think I've experienced enough to make two coats worth the effort.
Optimum's Dr. G says that acrylic-based Sealants do not cross-link.
Wouldn't you agree that nullifies any attempts at their being successfully layered?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/26063-other-acrylic-sealant-brands-2.html {Post #11}

Acrylics vs. Polymer - Ask the Optimum Experts - Optimum Forum (http://optimumforums.org/index.php?showtopic=207)

Bob

[Desertnate]

Optimum's Dr. G says that acrylic-based Sealants do not cross-link.
Wouldn't you agree that nullifies any attempts at their being successfully layered?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/26063-other-acrylic-sealant-brands-2.html {Post #11}

Acrylics vs. Polymer - Ask the Optimum Experts - Optimum Forum (http://optimumforums.org/index.php?showtopic=207)

Bob

That all makes sense to me...the bits I understood.

I was able to see a significant difference between the two vehicles, which lived in a very similar environment for the same length of time. My only guess is the second coat ensured a good, even application rather than a thicker layer of material on the surface. It's the only explanation I can come up with