What am I doing Wrong?

[keeotee]

Well, I got the PC with the Wolfgang Total Swirl remover and the CCS orange light cutting pad back in June. I've tried to remove the light swirl marks, some fine scratches and light but numerous water spots. But they are still there.

Is it possible that I am not working the product long enough? I've gone over one spot twice. When I work an area I make about five or six passes moving slowly.

I know without pics and not being there when I do it makes answering this difficult, but I assume I'm doing something wrong. The car is not yet four months old.

[cadd]

You may have to try a heavier cutting pad like a CCS yellow pad

[Bunky]

What is the vehicle?

I would recommend going to a more aggressive polish such as M105 over a more aggressive pad. If you are working the polish correctly and not getting the results after two runs, you probably have harder paint.

I had better results with M205 over WG TSR.

[keeotee]

I have a 2011 Camry.

[Mike Phillips]

Is it possible that I am not working the product long enough? I've gone over one spot twice. When I work an area I make about five or six passes moving slowly.



You can only work a product for so long... you don't want to buff to a dry buff....

My guess is, it's one of these,


Speed Setting
Downward pressure
You need a more aggressive product


I'll post the most common mistakes below, let us know the speed setting you're using and downward pressure.

The Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover is a medium to light swirl mark remover, it will remove down to about a #2000 grit sanding mark but there's a lot a variables involved with a rating like that so it's not always the best way to rate a compound or polish.



:)

[Mike Phillips]

I wrote this for MOL back in 2007, I re-wrote it for AG but sometimes the original is in a better format for troubleshooting...




Originally posted here,
Tips & Techniques for using the G110, G100, G220 and the PC Dual Action Polisher (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20874)


There are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.



Here's a list of the most common problems
Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
Too much product, too little product.
Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,
Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera



Read through the list and see if you can find any of the more common mistakes you might be making...


:)

[Mike Phillips]

The below pretty much covers how to use a DA Polisher to remove swirls, buffing out an entire car is basically buffing out one section at a time and then when you start a new section overlap a little into the previous section...


How to do a Section Pass
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q70g83mnTn4]YouTube - How to do a "Section Pass" with a Porter Cable 7424XP[/video]





:)

[StoneRaizer]

I'll admit that I've never used WGTSR, but the first thing that pops into my head is the pad choice. Could it be possible that the scratches you're seeing are marring from using the orange pad? Try stepping down to a white pad and see what happens.

[tuscarora dave]

I've seen a good number of brand new Toyotas with water spots etched into the paint so bad that they can't be polished out. I'm not saying that is your case or trying to discourage you but that has been an observation. Sometimes a vinegar pre soak before polishing will help to get the water spots off. Hard water mineral deposits are generally very hard and require a chemical approach to remove them.

I get much better results using Poorboy's World Pro Polish to remove hard water mineral deposits than I do by using M-105 or other abrasive polishes. Pro Polish is a chemical polish with very little to no abrasives and removes the deposits twice as fast as M-105 if in fact I am dealing with mineral deposits and not hard water or acid rain etching.

[Phinox]

Toyota uses a softer clear coat so its not hard paint. you might be seeing micro marring from the orange pad and TSR. Try going with a White pad and a less aggresive product like Wolfgang Finishing glaze and see if that removes the defects.

[keeotee]

Well, I really appreciate everyone's input. I've read through everyone's post. And I've watched the video too.

I had the PC on setting 5. I marked the backing plate with a black marker so I can visually determine if the pad is rotating. And I only did one small section of the hood today to see if I could get better results than the last time when I did the entire car. And as stated in my first post, I did not.

I may have been moving too quickly over the paint and working too large an area.

As for cleaning the pad, I did not do this as frequently as suggested. To be honest, I'm not sure how to clean it other than washing it, although I would use my hand against the pad while running the PC at about speed five or six. It seemed to help, but I doubt that is the proper method of cleaning between application of product.

I guess I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the different suggestions.

I must admit I am somewhat apprehensive in using the PC now. There is this thinking that I will remove too much clear coat in trying to rid my car of the swirl marks, scratches and water spots.

If I could get it to where it needs to be, I'm reasonably confident I could maintain it over time without too many new swirl marks.

In summary then, do I need a more aggressive product, pad or simply to improve my technique? I'm still uncertain of what to do exactly? But hopefully my answers to some of the questions asked will help.

[Mike Phillips]

I must admit I am somewhat apprehensive in using the PC now.


I've had so many people go through my classes that express that sentiment and then when they see the proper technique demonstrated first hand it solidifies what they were doing right and helps them to address any improper techniques.

You increase in confidence. Any chance you can get to Stuart, Florida in two weeks for our 101 class?



Sign up for Detailing classes in September!

Information Threads
Detailing 101 - Machine Polishing - Saturday September 18th (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/sign-up-saturday-detailing-101/28005-detailing-101-machine-polishing-saturday-september-18th.html)
Detailing 102 - Wetsanding, Cutting and Buffing for a Show Car Finish - Sunday September 19th (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/sign-up-sunday-detailing-102-advanced-class/28007-wetsanding-cutting-buffing-show-car-finish-sunday-september-19th.html)




There is this thinking that I will remove too much clear coat in trying to rid my car of the swirl marks, scratches and water spots.


This line of thinking is normal but convoluted... here's why...


If you're can't remove the swirls, water spots and scratches, you can't remove too much paint. Fact is removing defects means removing a little paint... if you're not removing any defects then you're not removing any paint and thus you can't remove too much paint....

More people struggle with removing swirls than polishing through the clear coat to expose the basecoat.


An understandable apprehension, however an unwarranted fear.



:)

[keeotee]

Mike,

I really appreciate the replies. I think I need to start over and try again. The information and ideas you and others have presented have given me plenty to think about. And of course I'll watch the video again. Learning is a process.

As to making it to the class, well, I sure wish I could.