How many section passes do you get with 105?

[Rez90]

I polished my black vette with 105/205 today.

I used cyan and burgundy HD pads on my FLEX.

I'm still learning how to use 105 correctly and one thing i noticed today was how short the work time seemed with 105. I've read before it flashes very fast.

My question is. Since i was using an X pattern on my pad once the pad was fully primed....How many section passes did you get out of 105? I found myself literally getting 1-2 full passes over the area before the product was virtually gone.

When with 205 you can keep going till you get sick. I found myself taking twice the time with 205 simply because the product had such a longer working time.

The car came out great. But by no means is the finish scratch free. it is MUCH improved though.

Thanks for any input.

-Rez

[WRAPT C5Z06]

2-3. Try Meguiars Ultimate Compound. Just below the cut of M105, but MUCH more user friendly.

[Mike Phillips]

I'm still learning how to use 105 correctly and one thing i noticed today was how short the work time seemed with 105. I've read before it flashes very fast.


Somewhere on this forum, shortly after SEMA last year, I posted that I was surprised that after all the feedback posted to all the forums about the short buffing cycle for M105, and the dusting problem, I posted I was surprised that Meguiar's didn't introduce M105 2.0

Maybe we'll see Meguiar's introduce a new and improved version this year at SEMA?

Or maybe there will just be a rolling change... whatever... but will so much feedback on the issues with M105 I would expect to see a formula change sometime in the future that will give the product what everyone's been asking for...


Longer buffing cycle
Wetter product




My question is. Since i was using an X pattern on my pad once the pad was fully primed....How many section passes did you get out of 105? I found myself literally getting 1-2 full passes over the area before the product was virtually gone.


That would depend upon how large of a section you're working at one time. The larger the section, the less "Section Passes" you can get because while you're off buffing one area of the section the film of product in the area not getting "worked" will be drying up.

Anytime you have a problem with ANY product drying up o your for any reason, try shrinking your work area downward. See this article for some more info and technques...


Tips for working in warm/hot weather or direct sunlight (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tips-techniques-how-articles-interacting-discussion-forums/26961-tips-working-warm-hot-weather-direct-sunlight.html)





When with 205 you can keep going till you get sick. I found myself taking twice the time with 205 simply because the product had such a longer working time.


M205 has a buffing cycle or what I like to call play time that everyone wishes M105 would offer.





The car came out great. But by no means is the finish scratch free. it is MUCH improved though.

Thanks for any input.

-Rez


Good to hear....


:xyxthumbs:

[Rez90]

pics ;-)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/28467-black-back-my-08-z06-detailed.html

[Rsurfer]

When with 205 you can keep going till you get sick. I found myself taking twice the time with 205 simply because the product had such a longer working time

Just because it has a longer working time doesn't mean you work it till it's dry. 205 uses non-diminishing abrassives (SMAT) and will keep cutting unlike other polishes which you need to break down.
Try priming the whole pad with 105 and add a few drops as needed.

[weavers]

3 pea size dots(m105/205), with 6 section passes. My car has soft paint and I could get away with 4(product starts to clear up by four passes), but I always do six passes. I quickly spread the product in a 12x12 or 16x16 with 2 section passes on speed 5, then slow down the passes for 6 additonal passes. It works really well for me.

I'm also in the habit of doing six passes when applying wax. I'm sure 2 or 3 is plenty, but I want it thin. oh I use Groits DA.

[Phinox]

With a rotary i get 2 to 3 passes depending on the size of the work area. DA i get 3 to 4.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Just because it has a longer working time doesn't mean you work it till it's dry. 205 uses non-diminishing abrassives (SMAT) and will keep cutting unlike other polishes which you need to break down.

I think this is why it's hard to finish perfectly(on soft paint) with 205 because you really need to know when to stop polishing.

[S2K]

Or maybe there will just be a rolling change... whatever... but will so much feedback on the issues with M105 I would expect to see a formula change sometime in the future that will give the product what everyone's been asking for...


Longer buffing cycle
Wetter product:xyxthumbs:



I think this is why it's hard to finish perfectly(on soft paint) with 205 because you really need to know when to stop polishing.

Wow, after posting pics of my Honda and asking for suggestions, I was recommended 105 and 205 by a lot of people on here, even after many comments about how soft the paint is. Now I'm thinking I might have wasted my money by buying a quart of each after asking how much I would need. Guess being new I have a lot to learn and will end up with a bunch of products drying up on the shelf.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

[/LIST]



Wow, after posting pics of my Honda and asking for suggestions, I was recommended 105 and 205 by a lot of people on here, even after many comments about how soft the paint is. Now I'm thinking I might have wasted my money by buying a quart of each after asking how much I would need. Guess being new I have a lot to learn and will end up with a bunch of products drying up on the shelf.
105 and 205 are extremely popular, they just have a learning curve. However, many will say it's hard to finish marr free on soft paint with 205. You'll usually have to follow with Menz 85rd or something similar. I, *personally* like to use dimishing abrasives on my second and third steps when working with soft paint.

[IrishMach]

105 and 205 are extremely popular, they just have a learning curve. However, many will say it's hard to finish marr free on soft paint with 205.

Who says 205 is hard to finish marr free? I've never heard anything of the sort. You say "many" could you please site some examples? I am very curious to this as I'm about to buy some but everything I have read about 205 says the opposite of your statement.

[zliegen]

I have never had any problems finishing with 205 on any car, some cars I've even been able to finish with 105 with no hazing or marring.

[DARK HORSE]

Re: How many section passes do you get with 105?

I don't know, but was wondering if anyone knows "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll" :D

[Dubbin1]

Re: How many section passes do you get with 105?

I don't know, but was wondering if anyone knows "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll" :D

Tootsie Roll Pop: How Many Licks?
An Ongoing Investigation

Principal Investigator: George Waksman
Copyright ©2004-2009 George Waksman
Data Contributors: George Waksman, Rachel Dillon, Megan Cohen, Jared Coffman, Brad Shilling, Cassidy Verlie
Abstract

Since the invention of the Tootsie Roll Pop, many men (and women and owls) have asked the question, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?" Previous research seems to suggest that one can reach the center with three licks and a bite (ref: Mr. Owl), but this does not sufficiently answer the question. Ongoing research is being conducted, and preliminary results have been obtained, towards solving the problem.
Purpose

The purpose of the research that is being conducted is to systematically determine how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop.
Method
Materials

* 1 Tootsie Roll Pop
* 1 Person

Setup

1. Unwrap the Tootsie Roll Pop

Procedure

1. Lick* side** of the Tootsie Roll Pop
2. Rotate to other side** of Tootsie Roll Pop
3. Repeat from Step 1 until center is reached***
4. Record results

* - A lick is when your tongue is run across the Tootsie Rolls Pop; sucking is strictly prohibitted in this experiment. The tongue need not, necessarily, be retracted into the mouth between individual licks, though it has been found to be more pleasant for the experimenter with frequent tongue retraction.
** - Tootsie Roll Pops are shaped in a roughly saucer shape; the broader parts are being referred to as sides
*** - The center is determined to have been reached when licking yields the texture of Tootsie Roll, flavor of Tootsie Roll and the discoloration of Tootsie Roll is visible with reference to the candy portion. This eliminates false positives as a result of bubbles in the candy, oddly textured regions and seeing chocolate through candy
Data
Trial # Contributor Trial Date Color # Of Licks Trial Duration
1 George Waksman 2004-05-21 Blue 474
2 George Waksman 2004-05-22 Red 522
3 George Waksman 2004-05-23 Dark Red 233
4 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Orange 590
5 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Purple 765
6 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Brown 799 14m
7 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Dark Red 585 9m
8 George Waksman 2004-05-25 Blue 539 11m
9 George Waksman 2004-05-29 Dark Red 610
10 Rachel Dillon 2004-05-29 Blue 601
11 George Waksman 2004-05-29 Dark Red 595
12 George Waksman 2006-07-10 Red 141
13 George Waksman 2006-07-10 Orange 544
14 George Waksman 2006-07-12 Blue 392
15 George Waksman 2006-07-13 Dark Red 378
16 George Waksman 2006-07-16 Green 414
17 George Waksman 2006-07-18 Dark Red 378 12m
18 Megan Cohen 2006-07-18 Brown 607
19 Jared Coffman 1988-06-13 Dark Red 272
20 George Waksman 2006-11-07 Orange 480 12m
21 Brad Shilling 2008-05-05 Dark Red 689
22 Cassidy Verlie 2009-04-14 Pink 572
Calculations
Minimum Licks

Since the obtained data represents the licking of both sides, the minimum number of licks for a given Tootsie Roll Pop is half (round up) the number of licks obtained in the trial
Mean

x_0 = 1/N * sum[x_i, i=1=>N]
double sided: x0 = 508
single sided: x0 = 254
Standard Deviation

s = sqrt[1/N * sum[(x_i-x_0)^2, i=1=>N]
double sided: s = 164
single sided: s = 82
Tabulated
Trial # Total Licks Minimum Licks
1 474 237
2 522 261
3 233 117
4 590 295
5 765 383
6 799 400
7 585 293
8 539 270
9 610 305
10 601 301
11 595 298
12 141 71
13 544 272
14 392 196
15 378 189
16 414 207
17 378 189
18 607 304
19 272 136
20 480 240
21 689 345
22 572 286
Mean 508 254
Std. Dev. 164 82

(I will try to add some graphs once I have a few more datapoints)
Conclusions

The data suggests that it takes approximately 508 licks to reach the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop when alternating the licking side. Since the procedure calls for equal licking of both sides of the Tootsie Roll Pop and completion is determined by core contact on either side, one could reach the core with fewer licks by focusing on only one side of the Tootsie Roll Pop. If one were to select the side closer to the core, it would theoretically require approximately 254 licks to reach the center.

The data also suggests a substantial variability in the number of licks required to reach the center, with a standard deviation of 164 licks for two sided licking and 82 for single side licking.
Error Sources

The small number of trials makes for a very large standard deviation. The standard deviation is so large, in fact, that it is not reasonable to assume the conclusions are accurate.
Further Research

More trials must be conducted to obtain more data points.

As other possible areas of research, one could look into the effects of tongue size, saliva production, tongue retraction and other variables on the number of licks necessary. The methods contained are easily adapted to further experimentaion.
Outside data contribution

Outside data contributions are accepted and greatly appreciated as long as the outlined procedure is strictly adhered to. Contributions may be made by sending details to waksman@gwax.com. Please include number of licks, trial date, lollipop color and contributors full name as incomplete contributions can not be used (trial duration is optional). Please do not contribute poisoned data.
References

* Tootsie Roll Industries - Memories => How Many Licks?

Licensing, Reproduction and Use

Any and all information contained herein may be used for any purpose with or without explicit permission of the copyright holder provided that the original document and author are properly referenced wherever any of the information is used.

[DARK HORSE]

Tootsie Roll Pop: How Many Licks?
An Ongoing Investigation

Principal Investigator: George Waksman
Copyright ©2004-2009 George Waksman
Data Contributors: George Waksman, Rachel Dillon, Megan Cohen, Jared Coffman, Brad Shilling, Cassidy Verlie
Abstract

Since the invention of the Tootsie Roll Pop, many men (and women and owls) have asked the question, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?" Previous research seems to suggest that one can reach the center with three licks and a bite (ref: Mr. Owl), but this does not sufficiently answer the question. Ongoing research is being conducted, and preliminary results have been obtained, towards solving the problem.
Purpose

The purpose of the research that is being conducted is to systematically determine how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop.
Method
Materials

* 1 Tootsie Roll Pop
* 1 Person

Setup

1. Unwrap the Tootsie Roll Pop

Procedure

1. Lick* side** of the Tootsie Roll Pop
2. Rotate to other side** of Tootsie Roll Pop
3. Repeat from Step 1 until center is reached***
4. Record results

* - A lick is when your tongue is run across the Tootsie Rolls Pop; sucking is strictly prohibitted in this experiment. The tongue need not, necessarily, be retracted into the mouth between individual licks, though it has been found to be more pleasant for the experimenter with frequent tongue retraction.
** - Tootsie Roll Pops are shaped in a roughly saucer shape; the broader parts are being referred to as sides
*** - The center is determined to have been reached when licking yields the texture of Tootsie Roll, flavor of Tootsie Roll and the discoloration of Tootsie Roll is visible with reference to the candy portion. This eliminates false positives as a result of bubbles in the candy, oddly textured regions and seeing chocolate through candy
Data
Trial # Contributor Trial Date Color # Of Licks Trial Duration
1 George Waksman 2004-05-21 Blue 474
2 George Waksman 2004-05-22 Red 522
3 George Waksman 2004-05-23 Dark Red 233
4 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Orange 590
5 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Purple 765
6 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Brown 799 14m
7 George Waksman 2004-05-24 Dark Red 585 9m
8 George Waksman 2004-05-25 Blue 539 11m
9 George Waksman 2004-05-29 Dark Red 610
10 Rachel Dillon 2004-05-29 Blue 601
11 George Waksman 2004-05-29 Dark Red 595
12 George Waksman 2006-07-10 Red 141
13 George Waksman 2006-07-10 Orange 544
14 George Waksman 2006-07-12 Blue 392
15 George Waksman 2006-07-13 Dark Red 378
16 George Waksman 2006-07-16 Green 414
17 George Waksman 2006-07-18 Dark Red 378 12m
18 Megan Cohen 2006-07-18 Brown 607
19 Jared Coffman 1988-06-13 Dark Red 272
20 George Waksman 2006-11-07 Orange 480 12m
21 Brad Shilling 2008-05-05 Dark Red 689
22 Cassidy Verlie 2009-04-14 Pink 572
Calculations
Minimum Licks

Since the obtained data represents the licking of both sides, the minimum number of licks for a given Tootsie Roll Pop is half (round up) the number of licks obtained in the trial
Mean

x_0 = 1/N * sum[x_i, i=1=>N]
double sided: x0 = 508
single sided: x0 = 254
Standard Deviation

s = sqrt[1/N * sum[(x_i-x_0)^2, i=1=>N]
double sided: s = 164
single sided: s = 82
Tabulated
Trial # Total Licks Minimum Licks
1 474 237
2 522 261
3 233 117
4 590 295
5 765 383
6 799 400
7 585 293
8 539 270
9 610 305
10 601 301
11 595 298
12 141 71
13 544 272
14 392 196
15 378 189
16 414 207
17 378 189
18 607 304
19 272 136
20 480 240
21 689 345
22 572 286
Mean 508 254
Std. Dev. 164 82

(I will try to add some graphs once I have a few more datapoints)
Conclusions

The data suggests that it takes approximately 508 licks to reach the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop when alternating the licking side. Since the procedure calls for equal licking of both sides of the Tootsie Roll Pop and completion is determined by core contact on either side, one could reach the core with fewer licks by focusing on only one side of the Tootsie Roll Pop. If one were to select the side closer to the core, it would theoretically require approximately 254 licks to reach the center.

The data also suggests a substantial variability in the number of licks required to reach the center, with a standard deviation of 164 licks for two sided licking and 82 for single side licking.
Error Sources

The small number of trials makes for a very large standard deviation. The standard deviation is so large, in fact, that it is not reasonable to assume the conclusions are accurate.
Further Research

More trials must be conducted to obtain more data points.

As other possible areas of research, one could look into the effects of tongue size, saliva production, tongue retraction and other variables on the number of licks necessary. The methods contained are easily adapted to further experimentaion.
Outside data contribution

Outside data contributions are accepted and greatly appreciated as long as the outlined procedure is strictly adhered to. Contributions may be made by sending details to waksman@gwax.com. Please include number of licks, trial date, lollipop color and contributors full name as incomplete contributions can not be used (trial duration is optional). Please do not contribute poisoned data.
References

* Tootsie Roll Industries - Memories => How Many Licks?

Licensing, Reproduction and Use

Any and all information contained herein may be used for any purpose with or without explicit permission of the copyright holder provided that the original document and author are properly referenced wherever any of the information is used.


:wow:thanks for the quick response Dwayne, I figured if anyone would know, it would be you! :dblthumb2: I think I'll get some tootsie pops and conduct my own experiments this week:cheers: