How can I avoid Rotary Buffer Swirls/holograms

[jahman]

In the past week I have buffed a large number of older, less cared for cars from friends and family to get as much practice as possible. I'm using a PC 7424XP and a Flex LK603VE rotary buffer that I bought used along with some wool pads. Needless to say I'm in love with the flex buffer. It takes one hour to buff a car that would take several hours with the PC, and the results I'm getting are getting are simply amazing.

Reading this forum you'd get the sense that for someone new to using buffers like myself shouldn't even think about touching a rotary buffer. But I don't really understand why everyone is so afraid of them. Armed with the knowledge that you need to be careful, what to avoid, and some common sense you're really not going to hurt anything.

Getting to the point of this thread (finally)...I came across this thread...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/26609-swirls-08-infiniti-g37s-self-healing-paint.html

...and now I'm a bit paranoid that in the future I might do this to someone's car, even though I've had no problems thus far.

I've seen Rotary buffer swirls, holograms, buffer trails mentioned and pictured several times on this forum. But mainly the cause for this is only explained as "bad technique" and that the operator needs to be skilled to use a rotary buffer.

My question is that even though I'm not getting these holograms or swirls (yet) how can I avoid it? What exactly is the bad technique that is causing the disaster in those pictures?

[Erik Mejia]

Even with good technique, many times you will end up with holograms. Holograms mostly if not always, are caused by a combination of the pad, polish/ compound, and the rotary buffers action. Its going to be hard to avoid all holograms, but they are simpler to correct with proper technique, and good tools like a DA and some finer polishes. Not all paints will lend themselves to hologram free results with only using a rotary. It is achievable, but sometimes it easier, and less frustrating to pull out the PC and finish it that way.

I see lots of people who start out looking at the PC as a novice only tool. I guess its all the fuss over "jeweling" and finishing with a rotary only that gets everyone so confused. Yes it is true that certain polishes and pad combination will allow you to get perfect results with only a rotary, but it doesn't mean your results will be less impressive if you decided to finish with a DA. In the end its all about the final results, and not what tool you used to get them. You shouldn't be thought of as a lesser detailer if you can't always finish up hologram free with only a rotary buffer. Sometimes it makes more sense to go to a DA and save some time instead of spending endless hours trying break down a polish for minutes on end with the rotary.

Not to dissuade you, but I'll bet that if you do a wipe down of the vehicles you've done with the rotary only, and you take that car out into the sun you will probably see some holograms here and there. Technique will have a lot to do with how many you get, but also the type of polishes and pads you use make a huge difference. Just keep working on your technique and feel for the rotary, and don't get discouraged. Practice makes perfect. I love using my rotary, sometimes I'll go out and use it on my practice hood just for fun. Keeps the stress levels down.

[Rsurfer]

Even with good technique, many times you will end up with holograms. Holograms mostly if not always, are caused by a combination of the pad, polish/ compound, and the rotary buffers action. Its going to be hard to avoid all holograms, but they are simpler to correct with proper technique, and good tools like a DA and some finer polishes. Not all paints will lend themselves to hologram free results with only using a rotary. It is achievable, but sometimes it easier, and less frustrating to pull out the PC and finish it that way.

I see lots of people who start out looking at the PC as a novice only tool. I guess its all the fuss over "jeweling" and finishing with a rotary only that gets everyone so confused. Yes it is true that certain polishes and pad combination will allow you to get perfect results with only a rotary, but it doesn't mean your results will be less impressive if you decided to finish with a DA. In the end its all about the final results, and not what tool you used to get them. You shouldn't be thought of as a lesser detailer if you can't always finish up hologram free with only a rotary buffer. Sometimes it makes more sense to go to a DA and save some time instead of spending endless hours trying break down a polish for minutes on end with the rotary.

Not to dissuade you, but I'll bet that if you do a wipe down of the vehicles you've done with the rotary only, and you take that car out into the sun you will probably see some holograms here and there. Technique will have a lot to do with how many you get, but also the type of polishes and pads you use make a huge difference. Just keep working on your technique and feel for the rotary, and don't get discouraged. Practice makes perfect. I love using my rotary, sometimes I'll go out and use it on my practice hood just for fun. Keeps the stress levels down.
You are giving advice and still need a practice hood?

[Fly bye]

The man makes sense to me :xyxthumbs:

[dnoraker]

Getting a 100% hologram-free finish with the rotary is very difficult. I've had a rotary for about 4 years and, though I've used it exclusively for compounding and polishing since then, I've only tried to use it for finishing in the last couple years.

On some paints, I've found that no matter what, I get a better finish with the rotary. When I use the DA and rotary an adjacent test spots with Menzerna 85RD, the rotary side looks slightly deeper in color on my car (dark red Altima). Even if I get the slightest holograms here and there, I still prefer how the color "pops" with the rotary on some paints. The DA, just as bad as hologramming to me, can cause micro-marring on some paints, which gives it a slightly hazy or "milky" look to it. The degree depends on the product. Whenever I used the old Meguiars M80 or M82 on my S-10, this always happened (I actually started finishing with Scratch-X and this helped!). But, when M205 came out, it virtually eliminated that problem.

I haven't practiced much with the DA and 85RD because I don't think I have the best pads for the combo, but maybe that would rival the rotary finish I get with 85RD and a Lake Country blue CCS pad.

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

You are giving advice and still need a practice hood?

Wow Dad, you are on a roll tonight, but once again agree with you.

To the OP, yes the rotary is going to induce holograms when being used, especially during your correction stage of the detail. You can easily remove them in your second or third steps easily with practice. It will take time to figure out what pad and polish will work best with each given paint situation though. So keep practicing and like with anything else you will get better with time.

[Mike Phillips]

but I'll bet that if you do a wipe down of the vehicles you've done with the rotary only, and you take that car out into the sun you will probably see some holograms here and there.




And the key to seeing if you left rotary buffers swirls is knowing how to test and actually testing.

Testing means moving the car back into full sun after stripping the paint after your last machine polishing process and that requires time and work because you're going to undo the high gloss finish you've created by chemically stripping by wiping a horizontal panel to insure any polishing oils are removed so the sun can fully reveal what's going on at the surface level.

In the real world, by the time you've invested a full days work, sometimes 2-3 days work into a project, by the time you've worked the paint up to the final rotary buffer pass "inside" a garage or shop the paint is going to look swirl free and it's real easy at this point o apply a coat of wax or paint sealant and wrap the job up.

To stop right now at this point, spray the hood or trunk lid down with IPA or Mineral Spirits, or an All Purpose Cleaner or to wash the paint with a strong solution of a strong detergent and "wash" the hood and then start the car up and drive it out of the work area and out into full sun and inspect is a lot of work and more time.

In my life I don't see very many people that do this, not even most Professional Detailers, I also rarely ever see any "Pro" documenting this with pictures to prove to themselves and their audience (whoever that might be), that they indeed chemically stripped the paint and then moved the car into the sun around noon to 2:00pm when the sun is high overhead and shining directly down on the horizontal surfaces to in fact show their are no holograms or swirls or any trace of holograms of swirls in the paint after the rotary buffer step. Most either assume it's swirl free and then tell everyone it's swirl free and it very well could be but I don't know many that know how to test and do in fact test to prove each car they buff out is in fact swirl free.

Can it be done?

You bet and this is especially true since the introduction of new abrasive technology in the last few years...

In fact it's easier now to create a swirl free finish with the new pad and abrasive technology than it's ever been, even for beginners...

As my good friend Joe aka Superior Shine once said, it used to be you would have to practice for years to get good with a rotary buffer, but now with the new products on the market it's easy for even a beginner to get professional results.


So can it be done? Yes. How do you know if you're in fact doing it? You have to test and most people don't test they just assume and go to the waxing step. The thing you want to do is practice and test to prove your system, (system = pad, product, tool and technique). You really need high overhead sun to reveal rotary buffer swirls and that limits you to sunny days and months when the sun is out.

A Swirl Finder Light and other artificial lights can also be used but the sun is a time proven source of light that will reveal even trace holograms to the eyes.



:)

[Erik Mejia]

You are giving advice and still need a practice hood?

Of course, I test wax durability and new compounds and polishes on it. Why would I test them on my car and remove unnecessary amounts of paint. They're good to have around as you can scratch them up and mess with them with out any real concern.

I didn't see you give any advice, maybe you should, and see if we can't all collaboratively get the OP to the level he wants to be at with some good, constructive advice.

[Mike Phillips]

Let's keep the thread family friendly... :xyxthumbs:

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I have two practice hoods in the garage, you can call them practice hoods or "testing" hoods.

Practice makes perfect and testing is how you find out what works and what doesn't.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Getting to the point of this thread (finally)...I came across this thread...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/26609-swirls-08-infiniti-g37s-self-healing-paint.html

...and now I'm a bit paranoid that in the future I might do this to someone's car, even though I've had no problems thus far.




Just to note and it's an important note... in the thread you linked to the paint system being talked about is self-healing paint and lucky for everyone these types of paint systems are far and few between.

Any other paint system is gong to be easier to work on and create a swirl-free finish.


:)

[Erik Mejia]

Will do Mike, and yes practice does make perfect. I learned that part of detailing from you.


Let's keep the thread family friendly... :xyxthumbs:

Forum Rules (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/introduce-yourself/24039-forum-rules.html)




I have two practice hoods in the garage, you can call them practice hoods or "testing" hoods.

Practice makes perfect and testing is how you find out what works and what doesn't.


:)

[dnoraker]

I'm just learning how to do IPA wipe-downs to check my work, though I'm trying to still get the hang of that. Otherwise, the way I know if I'm getting holograms is by working on my own cars and seeing how they look after a few washes. I have been able to polish hologram-free with a finishing pad and M205, except for rounded panels where I probably didn't ease up on the pressure enough. I definitely had the speed all the way down.

On my last polishing on my dark red Altima, I used Menzerna 85RD with blue CCS pads and after a few washings I haven't seen ANY holograms yet. I used the same process on a family member's Charget SRT8 that is metallic black, so I'll get to see the progression there after a few washes.

[AeroCleanse]

Most often holograms are caused by a wool pad. If you still see them after a foam pad you're probably not holding the pad flat.

If you can't get rid of faint holograms with a rotary, just make a pass with a DA until they are gone.

[dnoraker]

Well, I rarely get holograms on flat panels, but what about concave panels? I haven't been able to avoid some holograms in those areas because inevitably, the edge exerts a little bit more pressure.

[AeroCleanse]

Well, I rarely get holograms on flat panels, but what about concave panels? I haven't been able to avoid some holograms in those areas because inevitably, the edge exerts a little bit more pressure.

You can try a smaller pad, 3 or 4 inch size.