Can anyone tell me how to fix this single stage paint?

[spike]

Hi everyone, a friend of mine has an '82 benz that I detail for him. I have tried everything I can think of to fix this cloudy paint, and I just can't do it! The car has been re-painted since he has had it, but he can't remember exactly when (maybe 2004). I really need someone to tell me step by step how they have corrected paint like this before. I do everything by hand, and that might be where I am going wrong...but even by hand if you do a test spot you can still see if the product you choose is going to work, right? Well, I haven't had any luck here. I do own a flex, and I am still learning how to use it on my own car 1st, then I would like to help my friend get some clarity back into the paint. Here are some pics of what I'm talking about.


Before

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/3-20_007.JPG (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/17088/size/big/cat//ppuser/24199)

A 50/50 shot right after applying WG DGPS
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/3-20_008.JPG (http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/17089/size/big/cat//ppuser/24199)

The WG DGPS darkened the paint, and it looked nice, but when it dried, it was just like it was before, but now there was a shiny coating on top of the cloudy paint.

Can you guys tell me a process of how to fix this paint? I'm still new at detailing, so be specific! I want to go from this:
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2450MLBefore6.jpg

to this:

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2450SLfinished4.jpg

Like Mike P. did years ago (I think this car was done in 2004). But I can't find the process of what he used anywhere!! Does anyone know what was done to achieve this awesome look?

Things I have tried:

Megs UC, Klasse AIO, scratch x, and today I tried WG Finishing glaze. Nothing gets the paint clear. It's like it rubs in, and looks good, but the paint is always still cloudy after I use the product. It's like the paint needs some more nourishing oils or something. It just sucks the product right up, and doesn't look clear afterwards. So I didn't waste my time and I just went to directly applying the DGPS, because the FG was not working. My friend thought it looked good, but he's not a detailer. I, however, am a perfectionist, and I was not happy with the job I had done today...

[dunston]

Try Maguires #66. I had a Car in that same condition and ended up with amazing results. I thought it was doomed, but came out amazing.

[Mike Phillips]

We used M80 Speed Glaze to cut the oxidation using rotary buffer and wool pads...

M80 Speed Glaze is like #7 on Steroids as it contains a diminishing abrasive that breaks down fairly quickly. It contains the same polishing oils #7 contains so as you're cutting the paint you're also gorging it with these rich polishing oils and that helps to lubricate the cutting action as will as bring out the full richness of color.

Afterwards I think we used M80 with a DA and then M03 with a DA and then sealed her up. All three of these products, M80, M07 and M07 are very rich in Meguiar's trade secret polishing oils that have been around as long a cars have been around and that means and this means back when cars were painted with lacquers and enamels.

I have an article on restoring original and antique single stage paints in the work for a major automotive magazine and website... it will also be posted here when it's finished.


Photos courtesy of MeguiarsOnline.com

Before
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2450MLBefore2.jpg


After http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2450SLfinished1.jpg



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Just to add...

~~~

Unstable
When a single stage paint though either age, neglect, expose to the sun and probably all three factors, has passed the point of no return. The oxidation can be removed and the color restored but as soon as the paint is re-exposed to the sun or sometimes washing, the paint will lose color and fade back to the condition it started in before you worked on it.

~~~~


Years ago I coined a term for when single stage paint becomes so dried out and/or neglected for too long whereby the pigments become unstable. I didn't know how else to describe it but the word unstable took because that was the effect I would see.

What this means, is it's possible for a single stage paint to be intact on the surface and turn white or whitish like you see happening on the above Mercedes Benz.

Then, after you carefully clean and polish the paint using the right products the color will return like it was brand new, but... as soon as you expose the paint to the sun, or even washing sometimes, the color will disappear and the whiteness or opaqueness will return.

This is not a topical effect, it's deeper into or a better word would be throughout the matrix of the paint coating.

I needed a word/term to describe this effect and chose unstable.

It could be the paint you're working on has become unstable. When I come across a paint job that I think is unstable, here's what I like to do...

Take a section and polish as best you can, this can either be the hood, trunk or roof and it should be a horizontal panel. You can also just polish out a test spot.

Then return the car back to service and monitor how the paint reacts over the course of a few weeks. If the color is retained, then this is a pretty good indicator you can polish out the rest of the panels and the results your create will endure, at least as long as the owner maintains the paint.

If the color fades back to how the surrounding paint looks, then this is an indicator the paint has become unstable and don't bother working any further on the project as the results won't endure.

Before doing any of this kind of work you need to first educate the owner so they are aware of the issue and the experiment that you wish to perform and that's pretty much what it is... an experiment to a panel or a section of a panel.

Somewhere in my photo collection I have pictures of a maroon 1949 or 1951 Buick that had unstable paint. I also have pictures of a white 1954 Corvette that was discovered in a barn after decades and the original single stage paint polished back to brand new condition.

You never now what you can do until you try...

Hope this helps and good luck...


:)

[spike]

Thanks again, Mike!! Awesome info! I wonder if you have helped me understand why the paint is acting like it is...I would polish an area, and it looked wet, but then after it dried, it was just back to the cloudy look that I had before. And, just wondering...could the example of me applying WG DGPS, and the paint looking darkened and wet, then after it dried, I still had the same cloudy paint under it, indicate that the paint has become unstable? Or is the instability of the paint only seen with time like you said before after you've polished it out, then monitor its reaction to the weather and such?

With all this said, maybe my friend needs to get his benz re-painted...

Oh, and I CAN'T WAIT so read your article!!! I know it will be so full of good info!

[spike]

Another question Mike...I have an old bottle of M81 hand polish, and I was wondering if that works as well as M80? And if I remember right, I have tried the M81 on the benz and rubbed, and rubbed, and rubbed it in by hand, and just like the WG FG I just tried yesterday, it doesn't seem to do any good. Maybe I need to use the flex, because you just can't do it by hand? Not sure. But, to do a test spot like you recommend, can I use the M81 with my flex with a CCS orange pad to make my test spot?

[Mike Phillips]

I would polish an area, and it looked wet, but then after it dried, it was just back to the cloudy look that I had before.


Have you tried a product like M80, M03 or M07, all of these products are rich in a very specific formula of polishing oils that date back to the early 1900's.

The head chemist at Meguiar's told me once that he's never touched the #7 formula, that means this unique formula could date back to the 1920's or 1930's.

Lumping these 3 products into a group called "polishes" while might be accurate but to say that all polish formulas are the same and will do the same thing would not be accurate.

The #3 and #7 are non-abrasive, M03 can be used with tools that generate heat, that is the core difference between it and #7

M80 contains a specific type of diminishing abrasive designed to cut well, but break down quickly. When working on single stage paints, which are very porous as compared to clear coat paints, the ingredients in the product can make a huge difference in results.

So when you say,



I would polish an area, and it looked wet, but then after it dried, it was just back to the cloudy look that I had before.


I've seen this same thing many times, I've also seen different results when using a product like M80 for cleaning or M07 for just gorging the paint with some very old school, time-proven polishing oils unique to the Meguiar's line.

I'm not saying any of the below products will fix the problem with the paint on this MB because if the paint has become unstable nothing will fix it except a brand new paint job. I am saying that if I were trying to restore the paint then I would at least try vigorously hand applying some M07 to a section that you've already cleaned or abraded, or cut and see what happens over time.

M03 Machine Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/mg03.html)
M07 Show Car Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/meg7showcarg.html)
M80 Speed Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/mg80.html)


I posted these pictures recently to another related thread and thought I would share them here just to give people reading this a "picture" or "anchor" in their mind as to just how old the M07 formula is, it's been around since the Model-T. The glass bottle is post-WWII, a glass bottle with the Mirror Bright wording on the label would be pre-WWII

Sometimes I remind people that these products were around before plastic was invented, thus the glass bottles. The "cylinder" bottle you see below, just to the right of the glass bottle was the first plastic bottles to be introduced I think in the late 1950's, maybe early 1960's.


Photos Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline.com
(The majority of these bottles are in my personal collection, the oldest bottles belong to Barry Meguiar)


Pre-cursors to M07
This is just a guess on my part because the people that would know the answers are no longer with us... that said, it's my guess this was a pre-cursor to the M07 product if not the M07 product. Note the art deco design of the first bottle...

Here's a collection of 4 old Mirror Bright products from between the 1920' and 1940's

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/24OldMegsBottles.JPG


http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_001.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_0031.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_002.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_004.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_005.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_006.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_0081.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish1_0091.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2OldMBPolishFront2a.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish2_001.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish2_004.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish2_005.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish2_006.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/OldMeguiarsAutoPolish2_007.jpg



M07 Sealer Reseal Glaze --> Show Car Glaze
I posted these pictures recently to another related thread and thought I would share them here just to give people reading this a picture or anchor in their mind as to just how old the M07 formula is, it's been around since the Model-T. The glass bottle is post-WWII, a glass bottle with the Mirror Bright wording on the label would be pre-WWII

Sometimes I remind people that these products were around before plastic was invented, thus the glass bottles. The "cylinder" bottle you see below, just to the right of the glass bottle was the first plastic bottles to be introduced I think in the late 1950's, maybe early 1960's.
The third bottle from the left is a clear plastic bottle when they switched to the current style of bottles and is from the 1970's

The 4th bottle from the right shows when they changed the name from Sealer Reseal Glaze to Show Car Glaze primarily because as our lingo changed in the car appearance world, people were confusing "Sealer" with "Sealant" and M07 is water-soluble, hopefully everyone reading this can see why that kind of confusion could be a problem in the enthusiast or consumer market.

http://www.showcargarage.com/gallery/files/1/800_M07Collection.jpg



M05 New Car Glaze
M05 came out in the late 1950's after acrylic lacquer was introduced. The name has caused a lot of confusion over the decades because the name says "New Car" and people with brand new cars no matter what the era think this means it's a product for their car. Fact is, it came out as a product originally specific to single stage paints. It is like M07 except that it dries very fast and turns white when it dries whereas M07 doesn't really dry and remains clearish. M05 is also very powdery as you remove the residue. It is able to give you M07 results but easier to remove in a high-humidity climate due to the drying characteristic.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze001.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze002.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze003.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze004.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze005.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M05NewCarGlaze006.jpg



M03 Machine Glaze
This is a "Green Label" version of M03 Machine Glaze, I don't know much about the Green Label version except that the label and the lid are green while most bottles were the standard black colors.

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M03GreenLabel001.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M03GreenLabel002.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M03GreenLabel003.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M03GreenLabel004.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/717/M03GreenLabel005.jpg


M03 Machine Glaze in the Cylinder Bottle, probably from the 1960's or 1970's.
I was told that cylinder bottles were chosen because the could be easily slipped into a apron pocket in the professional side of the industry...

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/450_MGM3_001.jpg

http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/forums/photopost/data/500/450_MGM3_002.jpg



:)

[spike]

How cool is THAT???!! Mike, you are amazing!! I love learning about the older formulations. No, I have not tried M80 or M03 or M07. Just one more question...what would you recommend to cut the paint with before I use the M07 on it? Then I think I'll be all set to try the experiment.

[spike]

Sorry, I forgot to add what I have on hand as far as cutting abilities. I have Megs UC, and WG TSR. Would TSR do the trick?

[Mike Phillips]

Sorry, I forgot to add what I have on hand as far as cutting abilities. I have Megs UC, and WG TSR. Would TSR do the trick?



You could try either and then apply and work in some #7

The point I tried to make above was that if you're working on older, single stage paints, if the goal is to try to revive the color or pigmented portion then the idea was to use products that had the specific oils originally created for older single stage paints. That's what we used on the oxidized Mercedes-Benz.

I you look as the color of M80, M03 and M07, they all have these oils and have a greenish, brownish, khaki color to them due in part to the type of oils being used. The products you listed are white, they don't have these oils, the UC might have some type of Meguiar's specific polishing oils, I don't know, and the Wolfgang TSR might have some polishing oils specific to Menzerna, but neither of these are variations of M07.

That was my point, if you want to restore older, single stage paints you want to have some of these products listed above around as it is these products that have these TS oils in them, modern, new products don't and that's okay for modern clear coats.

UC and TSR are great products, I like and recommend them both, but you have been asking about products for "trying" to revive the pigmented portion of an older single stage paint and I did my best above to explain how to do this...


:)

[spike]

You could try either and then apply and work in some #7

The point I tried to make above was that if you're working on older, single stage paints, if the goal is to try to revive the color or pigmented portion then the idea was to use products that had the specific oils originally created for older single stage paints. That's what we used on the oxidized Mercedes-Benz.

I you look as the color of M80, M03 and M07, they all have these oils and have a greenish, brownish, khaki color to them due in part to the type of oils being used. The products you listed are white, they don't have these oils, the UC might have some type of Meguiar's specific polishing oils, I don't know, and the Wolfgang TSR might have some polishing oils specific to Menzerna, but neither of these are variations of M07.

That was my point, if you want to restore older, single stage paints you want to have some of these products listed above around as it is these products that have these TS oils in them, modern, new products don't and that's okay for modern clear coats.

UC and TSR are great products, I like and recommend them both, but you have been asking about products for "trying" to revive the pigmented portion of an older single stage paint and I did my best above to explain how to do this...


:)

Ohhh, I must be confused. :doh: You have explained things very well, it's just my confused brain...I thought that you needed something to cut first, then apply the M07. Are you saying to just use the M07? Sorry for the confusion! That's why I asked about the TSR and UC. I thought you had to cut first, then apply the M07. But I now see that you mean just use the M07 (I think?) I can tell from my limited experience that this paint really needs those oils like you said before. If it's just use the M07, well, that makes my job a lot easier! :)

[Mike Phillips]

But I now see that you mean just use the M07 (I think?) I can tell from my limited experience that this paint really needs those oils like you said before. If it's just use the M07, well, that makes my job a lot easier! :)



Actually, I listed a product that can cut and has the polishing oils...

For the Red Mercedes Benz we cut it with the M80 Speed Glaze and then used the M03 on it...

The paint was saturated both during the cutting process and after the cutting process.


:)

[spike]

Actually, I listed a product that can cut and has the polishing oils...

For the Red Mercedes Benz we cut it with the M80 Speed Glaze and then used the M03 on it...

The paint was saturated both during the cutting process and after the cutting process.


:)

Oh, I understand now...I just don't know the products like you do. Sorry for the confusion! I guess I'm going to have to order some M80...

[spike]

So I finally got a chance to do a test spot with M80 speed glaze on the MB. I picked the trunk lid, which was the easiest place to get to at the time. I had to really work in the M80 on a terry cloth applicator pad by hand, but once I did, the difference was amazing! I don't have any pics because I had to do it in a hurry, but the speed glaze cut through all the oxidation, and the paint finally looked glossy underneath. I will be going back next Monday to see how the spot holds up, and to see if the paint is unstable or not. So far, so good...

[Mike Phillips]

but the speed glaze cut through all the oxidation, and the paint finally looked glossy underneath.

I will be going back next Monday to see how the spot holds up, and to see if the paint is unstable or not. So far, so good...




Thanks for the follow-up and keep us posted...

Also, after cutting and polishing any paint you should also seal it as that is part of the normal process and would reflect the true end-results.


:)