Black Car / A bit of overspray and light peel.

[Wired]

Hello, new to the forum and might i say what great information to be found here. Fantastic!

OK here goes... 2000 bmw Jet Black. Got into a little accident where a driver tapped the drivers side door and put a big dent in it. Took it to bodyshop a friend recommended and the job they did was pretty bad. So 7 years go by and now i want to try to take out the orange peel that was left on the door that was repainted and a little overspray on the rear fender and a bit on the trunk... the door and the overspray look DULL compared to the original paint which is in good condition just swirls on it over the years.

I just got my new PorterCable 7424XP yesterday along with the ShowCar Garage DVD where i learned allot on how to use the machine... great DVD i might add. My question is... can i take out the light orange peel and make the door look new again myself?? Also can i achieve this using the machine on the little areas with overspray without buying another machine??

I don't mind going over the area 10 times with lighter abrasive product if thats what it takes but since I'm new to this i don't want to mess up the paint so i can be very very patient.

Thank you for any advice and keep up the great work on this forum. I have learned allot since i joined a few days ago.

[zinc02gt]

To truley remove orange peel it's going require 1 of 2 things. A rotary buffer or wetsanding then followed up with a rotary. The overspray could possibly be removed using an aggressive claybar like Meguiar's Professional Aggressive Clay, but it will more than likely leave clay marring.

Also, I wouldn't try to remove orange peel without a paint thickness gauge. I've done it on a scrap hood I bought, but it's a risky operation without a paint gauge.

[Wired]

To truley remove orange peel it's going require 1 of 2 things. A rotary buffer or wetsanding then followed up with a rotary. The overspray could possibly be removed using an aggressive claybar like Meguiar's Professional Aggressive Clay, but it will more than likely leave clay marring.

Also, I wouldn't try to remove orange peel without a paint thickness gauge. I've done it on a scrap hood I bought, but it's a risky operation without a paint gauge.


Thank you very much for the quick reply :xyxthumbs:

I guess it's better for me to get an expert to fix the orange peel on the door and to also take care of the minor overspray. I don't want to risk it on my own according to what you are saying cause it sounds a little more intense than i thought it would be.

So, if the expert fixes those 2 things do you think it would be advised that i can then go ahead and do all the steps that are on that DVD myself?? Cause i really want to throw a little passion behind that PorterCable and the techniques i learned on that DVD i got... Claybar / Scratch X 2.0 / Wax / Polish

[zinc02gt]

Do you have pics of this orange peel though? Sometimes it can be severe, but sometimes they were probably trying to match factory orange peel. MOST cars come with it. I honestly don't know of an American car that doesn't come with factory orange peel. I know yours is German and all, but I'm ust trying to put it in perspective.

It seems to me that you are wanting a showroom finish. While this is possible, it takes alot of skill, time, and patience.

Again though, pics would be best in this kind of situation. If you are REALLY that intent on removing the orange peel, let a TRUE professional take care of it. When you meet the guy grill them. Put them on the stove and give them 20 questions. The owner of the Lambo that I did did that to me before letting me even touching any of his vehicles. ASk him what kind of paint guage he uses, what he measures in, what buffer, polishes, methods for doing such and such things, etc. Get knit picky with it to let him know that you mean business and only want the best touching your car.

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Wired,

You can remove sanding marks using a DA Sander but it will require more time and energy versus doing it with a rotary buffer.

Hang on let me snag some information...


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Check out this thread...

Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads now at Autogeek! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/new-car-care-products/23927-surbuf-microfinger-buffing-pads-now-autogeek.html)


Ah what the heck, check it out and then here's some pictures from it...


Surbuf R Series 4 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-4-in-buffing-pads.html)
Surbuf R Series 5.5 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-55-in-buffing-pads.html)
Surbuf R Series 6.5 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-65-in-buffing-pads.html)

We were shooting a video on how to Machine Damp Sand using Meguiar's Unigrit #3000 Foam Finishing Discs and then how to remove your sanding marks using a rotary buffer and took a moment to show that if you choose, you can also use a DA Polisher with Surbuf MicroFinger buffing Pads to remove shallow sanding marks like those left by the #3000 Unigrit Foam Finishing Discs and a compound.

Just to note, for years now, the question about whether the you can use a DA Polisher, like the Porter Cable 7424XP (http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-polishers.html), the Meguiar's G110v2 (http://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-dual-action-polisher-g110.html)or the Griot's Garage ROP (http://www.autogeek.net/griots-random-orbital-polisher.html) to remove sanding marks out of modern clear coat paint has been a hot topic.

While there are a number of factors involved that affect a "Yes" or "No" answer, generally speaking you can remove light or shallow sanding marks out of clear coat finished using a DA Style Polisher with their Free Rotating Spindle Assemblies (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23995-free-rotating-spindle-assembly-story-behind-story.html)for drive mechanisms, you just need to use the right pads, products and techniques. Top Coat Hardness is a huge factor when it comes to determining whether or not a DA Style Polisher can remove sanding marks and this will vary between cars.

While the most effective way is still by using a direct drive, rotary buffer with a cutting pad and a compound, especially if you sanding down an entire car, we demonstrated using the Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads with a SMAT product (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/23561-smat-pack-everything-you-ever-wanted-know-about-meguiar-s-smat-products.html) like M105 you can easily remove a controlled sanding mark pattern, in this example, #3000 Unigrit Foam Finishing Papers by Meguiar's were used. Autogeek will have the new Unigrit Foam Finishing Discs very soon. Stay tuned for an upcoming article on this topic.

Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf000.jpg



This is our project car. This is a restored and mild hotrod 1969 El Camino with a custom basecoat/clearcoat finish. The fit and finish of the panels is excellent and the paint application came out very nice, there are a few leftover sanding marks in the paint and rotary buffer swirls including arc scratches probably from an abrasive particle being trapped between the pad and the paint. Our goal is to remove all the below surface defects and restore a true show car shine.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf001.jpg


We moved the car out into the sun where the bright overhead sunlight can reveal the true condition of the paint.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf002.jpg


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_029.jpg



Next we'll Machine Damp Sand the deep swirls and scratches until the surface is flat using the new Meguiar's Unigrit Professional Finishing System.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/834/UnigritFinishingSystem000.jpg


The section below was sanded using the #3000 Unigrit Foam Finishing Disc on the Meguiar's G110v2 on the 5.0 Speed Setting for about 5-6 Section Passes.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf003.jpg


We moved the car back out into the sun to show just how flat of a sanding mark pattern the Unigrit Foam Finishing Papers leave behind and this is because of the Unigrit particle size and distribution of these particles over the face of each disc; two very important factors that make removing sanding marks quick and easy.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf004.jpg


A very flat or matte appearance
In person, the paint actually has a sheen to it as it's just a quick step away from a polished look because the sanding marks are so shallow and flat...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf005.jpg


Back in the garage under the lights, you can see the Damp-Sanded area and the swirls and scratches in the rest of the paint.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf006.jpg


Here are the results after Machine Compounding using the Surbuf MicroFinger Buffing Pads on the Meguiar's G110v2 on the 6.0 Speed Setting with M105 Ultra Compound for about 5-6 Section passes.

We followed this with M205 Ultra Finishing Polish on a W9207 Foam Finishing pad on the 5.0 Speed Setting using the G110v2 for about 4 passes with medium pressure and then two more section passes with just a little more than the weight of the machine to keep the pad flat to the surface. The results you see here are only after polishing with M205, there is no wax or paint sealant applied at this point.

The test section was also wiped clean using straight Mineral Spirits to remove any residual polishing oils.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf007.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf008.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf009.jpg



Note the Dime in this picture carefully placed onto the paint
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf010.jpg



Close-up to show there are no sanding marks left on the surface, no tick marks or haze. There is a spec of dust just to the lower left hand corner off to the side of the dime that we left there to show just how close we are to the paint when taking this picture. This paint is LSP ready.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/837/SandingMarkRemovalWSurbuf011.jpg


On the Autogeek.net Website

Surbuf R Series 4 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-4-in-buffing-pads.html)
Surbuf R Series 5.5 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-55-in-buffing-pads.html)
Surbuf R Series 6.5 Inch Buffing Pads 2 Pack (http://www.autogeek.net/surbuf-65-in-buffing-pads.html)


p.s.

Write-up on how to use the Damp Sanding Technique to remove serious defects in the works...

Meguiar's Unigrit Finishing System
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/813/MeguiarsNewFinishSyst001.jpg

1969 El Camino - Damp-Sanded
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/UnigritDampSanding002.jpg

1969 El Camino - Compounded, Polished and Sealed
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/836/redelcamino_076.jpg

[Mike Phillips]

Here's another thread on this topic...

Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/wet-sanding-cutting-buffing/21463-removing-sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html)



In this thread, I sanded with #2000, followed by #2500, followed by #3000 all by hand and then removed the sanding marks using a DA Polisher and Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover which isn't near as aggressive as an aggressive 'compound'

So it can be done, the key is to finish out with a very high grip paper and first... do a TEST SPOT and make sure you CAN remove the sanding marks out of an small area before sanding down an entire panel or an entire car.

Pictures from the above thread,

Dedicated buckets for specific grits of paper. Grit Guard Inserts in the bottom of each bucket.
(You could theoretically use 2, even 3 Grit Guard inserts in each bucket for even more protection)
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1002.jpg


I'll start with Nikken #2000 Grit Finishing Paper
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1003.jpg


I'll remove the #2000 Grit Sanding Marks and replace them with #2500 Grit Sanding Marks
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1004.jpg


I'll do my final passes using ultra fine #3000 Grit Nikken Finishing Papers
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1005.jpg



Add just a few drops of a quality car wash soap to help add lubricity to your water. If you're working on Fresh Paint and/or in a Body Shop, (Fresh Paint Environment), then you want to make sure you're using a body shop safe soap.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1006.jpg


Add fresh, clean water. Also be sure to wash and rinse out your buckets before starting, everything must be surgically clean before placing your papers into the buckets.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1007.jpg


It's normal for your papers to roll up like this,
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1008.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1009.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1010.jpg


Mark you buckets so you can quickly and easily identify which buckets hold which papers.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/772/WetSandingExperiment1011.jpg



There's too many pictures to really copy and paste over here so click the link above and read through the thread, it's fairly detailed...



:)

[Mike Phillips]

And just to point out... everything zinc02gt is 100% accurate...

Let us know how you want to proceed and we'll be happy to help you with what ever direction you want to go...


:)

[Wired]

I'll post some pics up Sunday afternoon.
Even though I'm very tempted to try this out myself... i will take zinc02gt's advice and just let a pro handle the problem areas first.... then I'll guess ill just do all the steps you showed on the PC DVD myself.

Thanks for all the advice you guys, really appreciate all the help.

[StephenK]

Wired where are you located at? there might be someone on here that is close to you and would get with you and give you a little hands on lesson.

[Wired]

OK guys, here are the photos i took today.

A little over-spray on back close to the window left corner also you can see the respray paint job(orange peel) on the drivers door as well.

Then i took a passengers side that has original factory paint / Last photo is the one with the orange peel.

This car was waxed about 2 times in 10 years and has been garage kept for about 7 years so the paint is in pretty good condition just needs that TLC. You will notice some OLD wax in the nooks and in between some edges that i plan to remove when i take on the paint restoration myself or with the help of a pro on the rough areas. Man.. i really want this jett black paint to come alive again ;)

[zinc02gt]

Man, that is a horrible paint job... Sorry man. That orange peel is rediculous. That's going to take some patience and a nice paint gauge. Should clean up real nicely though.

[Mike Phillips]

Even though I'm very tempted to try this out myself... i will take zinc02gt's advice and just let a pro handle the problem areas first....


Need to be careful and make sure the Pro actually knows their stuff, most of the "Horror Stories" on detailing discussion forums are from "Pros" doing their normal pro work and while they may remove the initial defects they leave swirls in the paint.

Maybe just ask them how they finish out after any sanding and compounding?




Wired where are you located at? there might be someone on here that is close to you and would get with you and give you a little hands on lesson.


I like this idea, it's always great to see a forum member help out another forum members.


The biggest issue you have to be careful of is paint thickness, or more accurately, paint thinness.


Sanding removes paint
Compounding removes paint
Polishing removes a little paint

Hopefully the area that was repainted received a little extra clear than what a factory finish would have...


:)

[Wired]

I hear you guys loud and clear. I really think with the right person this car can look great... I will begin my search for a pro in the Hollywood Florida area to see if i can locate a good one out there. I'll be sure to ask the questions to see if i get the answers that make sense and ill also ask for references. I saw a company here on the forum that i might take a look at(they are "mobile" as well, that is going to be a plus for me to save time) I'll keep you guys posted and provide photos as i get info and move forward on this project.

[Mike Phillips]

Attachments are such a paint to click on and look at... I downloaded ONE of your pictures and uploaded it into your gallery, took me about 30 seconds, here it now inserted instead of attached


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/OversprayOrangePeel.jpg



How-to work with pictures on discussion forums (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles-discussion-forums/21320-how-work-pictures-discussion-forums.html)


Wired,

The EXTREME texture on this curve in the above picture also next to a body line will make it difficult for anyone to sand and buff. It can be done, but it's important that you and anyone looking at this picture understands what's involved with fixing someone else's mistake of a paint job.

It's easy to sand paint... that means putting scratches into the paint... heck anyone can do that...

The tricky part is REMOVING the scratches 100% and not making a mistake in the process.

When you have a tight area like in the above pictures and a body line it's very risky to machine compound sanding marks, at least over the entire area, it's safer to sand and then remove sanding marks by hand.

It's even safer to just improve the hard to sand area than to try to make it look like a show car just due to the shape of that curved area and how embarrassingly horrible the paint is in that area. Time, effort and money would be better spend of the more visual flatter major panels.

For what it's worth...

:)