105 Worked Until "Dry" vs "Dry Buffing" Question

[MobolWerks]

Mike,

I have been looking in to using Meguiars 105, but before I do, I was hoping you could explain the phrase "buff until dry".. My biggest fear is that I don't understand how I will know when I have "buffed until polish is dry" vs causing damage by "dry buffing"...

Can you elaborate on this??

[kronos]

From my understanding and experience using this compound, it'll dry before you get to do more than 4 section passes (assuming an 18" x 18" working area). At that point, it has flashed and the risk of dry buffing becomes a factor. The length of workability is influenced by the weather and your technique.

[MobolWerks]

So what specifically is the difference between "buffing until dry" and "dry buffing"???

[kronos]

So what specifically is the difference between "buffing until dry" and "dry buffing"???

Depending on the conditions, the average working time for every polish is unique. Although working in a 18" x 18" area, 4 to 6 section passes would be the average workability of polishes. That being said, "buffing until dry" refers to end-time of workability for whatever polish you are using at the time. Some polishes become translucent and others begin to dust. When this happens, the lubricants in the polish have dried-up, thus you stop polishing. "Dry buffing" is going beyond the point of when the lubricants have dried, thus you "dry buff". The result like you said, can lead to polish instilled swirls.

Did that help? I hope so cuz I think I've used up my knowledge database. :laughing:

[MobolWerks]

Yeah that make sense.. That is way easier to understand than I thought it would be:)

By the way, when you say 4 passes, do you mean Right, Left, Right, Left or do you mean back-and-forth 4 times - i.e Right/Left, Right/Left, Right/Left, Right/Left????

[Mike Phillips]

Mike,

I have been looking in to using Meguiars 105, but before I do, I was hoping you could explain the phrase "buff until dry".. My biggest fear is that I don't understand how I will know when I have "buffed until polish is dry" vs causing damage by "dry buffing"...

Can you elaborate on this??

Where are you reading this? Or who is telling you to buff until dry? Or to buff to a dry buff?

Let's start at the beginning.

Thanks...


:props:

[MobolWerks]

On the AG webiste, it says "Meguiars Mirror Glaze 105 Ultra-Cut Compound should be applied with a polisher if you plan to compound the entire vehicle. Work at a maximum speed of 1500 to 2000 RPM with a foam or wool cutting pad. Work until the compound starts to dry."

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Yeah that make sense.. That is way easier to understand than I thought it would be:)

By the way, when you say 4 passes, do you mean Right, Left, Right, Left or do you mean back-and-forth 4 times - i.e Right/Left, Right/Left, Right/Left, Right/Left????
1 section pass equals:

>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>

Not exclusively that many times back and forth, but that gives you an idea.

[Mike Phillips]

Work at a maximum speed of 1500 to 2000 RPM with a foam or wool cutting pad. Work until the compound starts to dry."


This is what I love about detailing forums and this is why I almost never type out,

Apply the wax....

Instead, to cover all the completely D.O. enthusiasts, I'll include the extra key strokes to type out,

Apply the wax, synthetic paint sealant or hybrid paint protection product...


Now I've covered ALL the bases...

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


Because some people will take issue if you refer to a paint sealant in the generic vernacular of calling it a car wax. Point always being is whatever it is you're using, it's a "paint protection product".


So when I read the copy above, it says

Work until the compound starts to dry.

It doesn't say work the product till it is dry or buff to a dry buff or use the dry buffing technique.

It's not as tight as wording as I will tend to write but until today, there has never been an issue with the copy, so thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Now let me take a moment to explain what happens when you buff a product till the surface goes dry...

When the surface goes dry, you have buffed to a dry buff and you no longer have any liquid lubricating the surface. Do this on a black panel and then chemically strip the panel and then put the panel in direct, overhead sunlight and see how it looks.

So if the goal is a swirl-free finish, then you want to do everything you can to reduce the potential to inflict or instill swirls and that means stop buffing before the surface goes completely dry.


How's that?


:props:

[Mike Phillips]

Here's something I wrote on this topic in the below thread, while this was targeted at the Porter Cable PC 7424XP it has some crossover application to working with rotary buffers with compounds.


Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher to remove Below Surface Defects (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/expert-tips/20021-tips-techniques-using-porter-cable-7424xp.html)






The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.


In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.

Factors that affect the buffing cycle include,

Ambient temperature
Surface temperature
Size of work area
Type of machine
Type of pad material
Humidity
Wind or air flow surrounding the car
Amount of product used
Technique
Wet buffing technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind swirls and scratches.


Dry Buffing Technique - Buffing to a dry buff
There are some products on the market where the manufacture recommends buffing the product until it dries. As the product dries you’ll tend to see some dusting as the product residue becomes a powder and the paint will have a hard, dry shine to it.

Although some manufactures recommend this, it’s important to understand what’s taking place at the surface level as you buff to a dry buff. As the product dries, in essence you are losing the lubricating features of the product and as this happens friction and heat will increase. As friction and heat increases, so does the risk of micro-marring the paint or instilling swirls either by the product residue or the pad material and/or a combination of both.

While we trust that the manufacture knows their products best, when we take a close look at what it means to buff on a delicate surface like an automotive clear coat, it doesn’t make sense to run a buffing pad on top of the paint without some kind of wet film to lubricate the paint at the same time. We always recommend that you follow the manufacture's recommendations and use your own judgment.

Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and taught to others,

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path of travel of the buffer should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing. Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.

[Mike Phillips]

1 section pass equals:

>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>

Not exclusively that many times back and forth, but that gives you an idea.


Great job explaining with key strokes what a section pass is...

Dang... why didn't I think of this years ago...

:laughing:


For anyone wondering what we're talking about, the definition of what a section pass is can be found here,

Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher to remove Below Surface Defects (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/expert-tips/20021-tips-techniques-using-porter-cable-7424xp.html)




The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.


In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.

Factors that affect the buffing cycle include,

Ambient temperature
Surface temperature
Size of work area
Type of machine
Type of pad material
Humidity
Wind or air flow surrounding the car
Amount of product used
Technique
Wet buffing technique
Most compounds and polishes should be used so that there is enough product on the surface to maintain a wet film while the product is being worked. The wetness of the product is lubricating the paint as the abrasives abrade the paint and cushion or buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don’t simply scour the finish leaving behind swirls and scratches.


Dry Buffing Technique - Buffing to a dry buff
There are some products on the market where the manufacture recommends buffing the product until it dries. As the product dries you’ll tend to see some dusting as the product residue becomes a powder and the paint will have a hard, dry shine to it.

Although some manufactures recommend this, it’s important to understand what’s taking place at the surface level as you buff to a dry buff. As the product dries, in essence you are losing the lubricating features of the product and as this happens friction and heat will increase. As friction and heat increases, so does the risk of micro-marring the paint or instilling swirls either by the product residue or the pad material and/or a combination of both.

While we trust that the manufacture knows their products best, when we take a close look at what it means to buff on a delicate surface like an automotive clear coat, it doesn’t make sense to run a buffing pad on top of the paint without some kind of wet film to lubricate the paint at the same time. We always recommend that you follow the manufacture's recommendations and use your own judgment.

Everyone new to buffing wants to be told some easily identifiable sign that they can use to tell when it's time to stop buffing and it's not that simple, so here's an indicator I've always used and taught to others,

Wet film behind your path-of-travel
As you're making a single pass with the polisher, the paint behind the path of travel of the buffer should have a visible wet film on it. If the paint behind the pad is dry and shiny, you've run out of lubrication and you're dry buffing. Turn the polisher off. Wipe the residue off and inspect using a Swirl Finder Light to make sure you didn't dull or mar the paint, you usually won't cause any harm, but pay attention when your running the polisher and don't buff to a dry buff. If you do, you can quickly re-polish that section by cleaning your pad and adding a little fresh product and making a few new section passes.





It's actually also in this video
How to Remove Swirls with the Porter Cable 7424XP (http://www.palmbeachmotoring.net/ascg-videos/porter-2-20-10.html)


And I think it's in this video too...

How to use the Cyclo Polisher to Remove Swirls (http://www.palmbeachmotoring.net/ascg-videos/cyclo-2-13-10.html)



Because this comes up all the time I'm going to create a dedicated article for it in the Tips & Techniques forum.


:dblthumb2:

[MobolWerks]

Thanks Mike. That makes perfect sense. Time to practice, practice, and practice some more:)

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Great job explaining with key strokes what a section pass is...

Dang... why didn't I think of this years ago...

:laughing:

LOL!

:righton: