GG 6", Megs G110v2, or Flex 3401

[tuan209]

Hi Everyone!

I need some suggestion on which machine to get. Its been awhile since I have detailed cars as I have been busy with school. I had a cyclo for a few years but sold it off once I went to graduate school. Ill be off for a week for spring break and would like to take this opportunity to polish my car, something I have not done for a few years.

I really like the reviews I have read on the Flex 3401 but it is pricey considering I will only have the chance to polish once or twice at most every year. I am also not sure if my skill level is adequate enough to use the Flex. If I go for the Flex, will it enable me to do paint correction substantially quicker than the GG or Megs?

If I go for the GG or Megs, how is the edge 2000 system on those machines? Is it recommended? If not, what backing plates and pads do you guys suggest?

Sorry for all the questions. I have been away from detailing for awhile now.

Thanks!
Tuan

[CEE DOG]

To extremely summarize:
I will say get the Flex if you have the money.
Almost everybody will say the Flex if you have the money but if you only going to polish once or twice a year then theres no need and get one of the others.
Some will say get the Griots and you can do what you need.
I will add regardless of how often you are going to polish you should definetly get the Flex if you have the money for 1 simple reason... When you do polish don't you want to enjoy doing it?

Here you are my friend: Enjoy

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/23796-may-want-step-up-more-powerful-da.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/23276-review-flex-xc-3401-dual-action-orbital-polisher.html

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/questions-about-porter-cable-7424xp-7424-7336-griot-s-meguiar-s-dual-action-polishers/23434-griot-s-garage-6-ro-meguiars-g110v2-input-needed.html

[tuan209]

Thanks Cee!

I want to try the Flex but I am not sure if it is worth it for me. When I first got into this hobby, I amassed so many products that my garage was full of polishes, sealants, and cleaning products, many of which are still sitting there having been used only once or twice. It got so bad that I had to give them away on forums and to friends.

I am only considering the Flex because I have read that it is faster to polish than the typical DA polishers. On average, how much time would really be saved by using a Flex vs a GG or G110v2?

[CEE DOG]

This really depends on how many stages to your polish system you are planning. (1 type polish with 2 different types of pad) (3 types of polish with 5 different types of pads) Could vary quite a bit...
If this is for a specific car as I think you mentioned, what car do you have and what polishes and pads will you be using?
Those answers may help somebody answer you more accurately.

Regardless, I don't have enough experience to give you an answer that I beleive is 100% correct on that. I only briefly used the Griots. I'll let somebody else pipe up. If you don't see anything from anybody after about 24 hours I would post a new thread titled "How much time does Flex 3401 save?"

Forum name "O.C. Detailing" will tell you that he can correct paint just as fast with his Griots on some cars as his buddy can with the Flex. While I respect what he says I will put it like this. I am certain that I could do it a fair bit quicker with the Flex then I could with the Griots.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I have the Flex 3401 and it's a very well engineered polisher and has great correcting ability. However, I'm seriously thinking of adding a true DA to my arsenal. If you want forced rotation, go with the Flex 3401. There's always the Festool Rotex which I heard is AWESOME, but that's $500!!!

[Grizzly]

I have the Flex 3401 and it's a very well engineered polisher and has great correcting ability. However, I'm seriously thinking of adding a G110v2 to my arsenal. The Flex is great on flat panels because you don't have to fight with the polisher. The G110 is easier to control, especially while polishing curved panels because of the lack of forced rotation. With the G110v2, you can use different sized backing plates, and the correcting ability will rival the 3401 when using the KBM. So, every polisher has its pros and cons, so go with what best fits your needs. The PCXP is overrated, IMO. If you want a non forced rotation DA, go with the G110v2. I had the new GG 6" for a short time. While it has plenty of power, I didn't feel it was a well engineered tool. If you want forced rotation, go with the Flex 3401. There's always the Festool Rotex which I heard is AWESOME, but that's $500!!!


The PC is not overrated, do you know how reliable the original 7424s are? I would take a PC over a G110v2 anyday, the first generation G110 was terrible , I had two die on me within a year. There have been a couple of bad G110v2s already.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

The PC is not overrated, do you know how reliable the original 7424s are? I would take a PC over a G110v2 anyday, the first generation G110 was terrible , I had two die on me within a year. There have been a couple of bad G110v2s already.
I was not speaking in terms of durability. Since you bring it up, you can't beat Porter Cable durability.

[tuan209]

Thanks guys for the replies!

I think I am now leaning towards the GG or G110v2. After thinking it through, I think a PC like machine will always have it place in ones arsenal. Plus, spending 300 on a machine I will rarely use is a bit wasteful for me at the moment.

I have a dark gray 2004 Acura TSX so the paint is rather soft. Which pads would suit me best? I am partial to Edge 2000 system as that is what I used with my Cyclo, so would that be a good option for the GG? If not, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I have some Menzerna polish compound, not sure which model as its been a while since I have used the stuff. Could I use the KB method with it or would I be better off getting some m105?

Sorry for all the questions! :xyxthumbs:

[Rsurfer]

Thanks guys for the replies!

I think I am now leaning towards the GG or G110v2. After thinking it through, I think a PC like machine will always have it place in ones arsenal. Plus, spending 300 on a machine I will rarely use is a bit wasteful for me at the moment.

I have a dark gray 2004 Acura TSX so the paint is rather soft. Which pads would suit me best? I am partial to Edge 2000 system as that is what I used with my Cyclo, so would that be a good option for the GG? If not, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I have some Menzerna polish compound, not sure which model as its been a while since I have used the stuff. Could I use the KB method with it or would I be better off getting some m105?

Sorry for all the questions! :xyxthumbs:
Get the G110v2 or GG with 5.5" flat pads at AG. I would use the Menz polishes you have and if that doesn't do the job, get Meg's 105/205 combo.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Also, I have some Menzerna polish compound, not sure which model as its been a while since I have used the stuff. Could I use the KB method with it or would I be better off getting some m105?


I been communicating with Kevin Brown a lot the last couple weeks. He's the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to a DA, IMO.

You only use the KB method when using non-dimishing abrasives(M105, M205, UC, Swirl X, Scratch X 2.0, D151). Menzerna polishes use diminishing abrasives. :)

[Steven C]

First off that why you join the forum to get question answered and show off your work and help other out with their problems. Now back to you question. In my opinion the Flex is worth it if you can afford it. I have one and would highly Recommend it. But I aslo have GG HD and is a very nice machine plus you change out to Scrub Brushes and Spot Buff pads. I use to own the 7424xp was not very impressed Very loud and it vibrated to much. I have not used Megs 110v2 but have read so good reveiws

Lots of luck

Steven

[5.4 Shelby]

I been communicating with Kevin Brown a lot the last couple weeks. He's the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to a DA, IMO.

You only use the KB method when using non-dimishing abrasives(M105, M205, UC, Swirl X, Scratch X 2.0, D151). Menzerna polishes use diminishing abrasives. :)
I have seen the "KB Method" referenced a few times. Can anyone explain or link me to an expalanation of it?

[tuan209]

Get the G110v2 or GG with 5.5" flat pads at AG. I would use the Menz polishes you have and if that doesn't do the job, get Meg's 105/205 combo.

Thanks! Just to make sure, you are suggesting the LC flat pads over the LC hydro pads? Which color pads do you recommend?

Tuan

[Rsurfer]

Thanks! Just to make sure, you are suggesting the LC flat pads over the LC hydro pads? Which color pads do you recommend?

TuanYes, the LC flat, as some are having problems with the Hydro. Get some orange, white, grey and blue for jeweling and wax application.

[Mike Phillips]

I have seen the "KB Method" referenced a few times. Can anyone explain or link me to an explanation of it?

I've seen pages written on this when it's really very simple.

Instead of making an X-pattern of product on a pad, instead of making a Circle-Pattern of product on the face of a pad, instead of placing a few Pea sized drops of product on the face of a pad, you take and spread out and work into and over the entire face of the pad the SMAT product you're going to use. Then wipe your fingers and hands clean before buffing so you won't coat the body of the polisher with whatever chemical it is you're using.

By doing this the moment you turn on the polisher with the pad against the paint 100% of the pad is doing 100% work.

The theory being that if you only apply product to portions of the face of the pad then not all of the face of the pad will be working at 100% efficiency until you've applied a few applications of product to the pad and the product has moved out over the face of the pad just by the act of working the product over the surface.

Kevin's method does insure that 100% of the pad is working at full efficiency from the very beginning but it would theoretically require you to,


Clean the pad after each application to remove spent product
Re-apply fresh product to the entire face of the pad for each new section that you buff

It pre-wets the face of the pad so that it's wet with product versus wet portions and dry portions but anyone that's ever used a DA Polisher for more than the hood of one car knows that after you buff the area the size of a hood on a car whatever pad you're using, whatever product you're using and whatever technique you're using, by the time you've buffed a few sections the entire face of your pad is now wet with product.

Same end result is achieved either way, the primary benefit that I can see with working the product over the entire face of the pad when first starting out is for your first passes the entire face of the pad is wet with product and abrading the paint.

How much of a benefit there is to this versus using an X-pattern or a Circle-Pattern is questionable BECAUSE the same effect will take place after 2-3 applications of product by simply placing an X-Pattern or Circle Pattern on the face of the pad. Once your pad become wet with product it reaches an equilibrium point of saturation, at this point when you apply fresh product, less of the fresh product is going to seep into the pad via capillary action as the pad is already wet.

IF you use good technique, that is if after you apply your product in any manner to the face of the pad and THEN quickly spread the product out over the area you're going to work instead of just placing the pad against the surface and starting to make slow overlapping passes, then it's this spreading the product out over the area you're going to work that SPREADS THE PRODUCT OUT OVER THE AREA YOUR GOING TO WORK and thus lays down a uniform layer of fresh product onto the surface versus having it simply push up inside of the pad.


(The sentence in capital letters above should be spoken in your best Christopher Titus voice impersonation ala The Titus Show).
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/titus.jpg



To be honest, (and this is just my opinion), if two skilled detailers started out in identical situations, that is same tool, same chemicals, same pads, same car with paint in the exact same condition, and then both people started at 8:00am buffing out the car, assuming they worked at the same speed, they would both finish removing the swirls, polishing to a high gloss, applying and removing a wax or paint sealant about the same time at the end of the day.

I don't think one person would finish at noon and the other person would finish at 8:00pm because there's that HUGE of a difference.

If you actually stop after each application and clean your pad to remove spent product and then take your hands and fingers and apply, smear around and work the fresh product into and over the face of the pad and compare that to removing the spend product from the face of the pad and the quickly applying a fresh circle or X-pattern of product to the face of the pad and then turning the polisher back on and getting back to work, the person doing the polishing this way would be back to work while the other person would be wiping the product off their hands and fingers so they could get a firm, clean grip on the polisher, otherwise you would have chemicals all over at least the fingers of one hand.

And of course, having a pad washer on hand always makes cleaning off spent product faster and more effective than any other method when using a DA Polisher.


Dirty pad
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/746/SpaceCoast019.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/746/SpaceCoast020.jpg


Using a slow speed, press the face of the pad against the Grit Guard insert and push up and down on the Grit Guard and this will pump cleaning solution up and into the pad to remove built-up polish residue.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/746/SpaceCoast021.jpg



Clean pad, ready to put back into service...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/746/SpaceCoast025.jpg


If you do a lot of buffing, a pad cleaner will safe you time and enable you to work cleaner while getting more use out of your buffing pads.

Grit Guard Universal Pad Washer (http://www.autogeek.net/grit-guard-universal-pad-washer.html)



My comments...

Surbuf Pads and SMAT Products
I think it helps anytime you're starting out with a clean dry Surbuf pad to pre-wet the surface with the SMAT product you're going to use to insure that 100% of the pad is working for you because there is a more shallow or shorter nap of fibers before you run into an attaching interface as compared to a thick foam pad which will absorb liquids till it reaches a saturation point. After the Surbuf pad is wet with product I think as long as you're removing spent product you will get close-enough results by simply applying fresh product to the face of the pad and getting back to the task at hand as you will by taking a moment to spread the product out with your fingers. The product is going to be distributed after you turn the polisher on and and being to move it over the area you're going to work. There isn't' anywhere else for the product to go because of the shallow depth of the microfiber fingers and the interface in which they are attached to.


Foam Pads and SMAT Products
I think it helps anytime you're starting out with a clean, dry foam pad to pre-wet the surface with the SMAT product you're going to use to insure that 100% of the pad is working for you because it can only help my maximizing efficiency since 100% of the pad will be wet with product. After the initial application, if you're using a pad washer to clean your pads, since the pad will now be wet with both water, cleaning solution and product, (to some level), at this point it's just as fast to just pick a style of placing fresh product back onto the face of the pad, spread the product out over the area you're going to work and then slow your arm speed down and begin working the paint with the fresh product. Even though most foam pads offer a thicker medium, (the foam formula itself), for fresh product to seep into, because the pad is now wet, if you spread the product out and get to work like you're supposed to be, then most of the product will be on the surface between your pad and the paint, where it's supposed to be.

Recommendation
The best thing to do would be to experiment with applying and working a SMAT product over the face of a buffing pad with your fingers and/or hand, wiping your hand off and then getting back to work and comparing that method to squeezing out a strip of product onto the face of our pad and getting back to work.


Big picture
One thing for sure, if you're working on a car that has swirls and you're using nothing but a DA Polisher for all the steps, this includes the correction step, the polishing step, possibly a second polishing or jeweling step and then application and removal of Your LSP, on an average size car, it's going to take you anywhere from a range of 6 to 12 hours from start to finish and this usually assumes the car is washed, dried and clayed before hand. This may or may not include taping off trim before starting depending upon the detailer.

I don't know that choosing one method over the other method of getting product onto a pad is going to make a dramatic difference in the amount of time to do the job and if the person doing the work is really doing a great job for the first step, that is the correction step BECAUSE your end results are always determined by the first step, that is how well you remove the below surface defects, then either method is going to work just as well as the other when you make the final wipe to remove any trace wax or paint sealant residues and then stand back, admire the results and say to yourself, it is finished.


:)