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View Full Version : Tips, Tricks and methods for getting little extra shine



frosty
12-18-2009, 02:09 PM
I know there have been threads talking about this and I've followed them and a lot of times, I see either, try this product. Or try this product or pad. Even having those doesn't necessarily get you exactly to the point as the really good jobs we get to see in the show and shine section. For me I have test panels but I'm sure not everybody has time to run out and pick up some. Plus when I see one product that has similar specs as another product, my mind asks is it really the polish, the polish and pad, or just the technique that the person has become comfortable with using the polish and there are other things that will do just as good when perfected.

So I'm starting this thread in hopes of getting some more detailed responses from everyone that cares to share their go to method of making somebody's mouth drool when looking at their paint. So instead of just responding, use 85rd or UltraFina & a blue pad. Hopefully we get more in-depth responses with plenty of procedural details of how to get there . Most importantly how long to expect to spend on each process you do to help everybody hopefully dial in on it in a quicker fashion.

I'm making this up but a sample response: The 85rd & blue pad typically, I run machine x on setting y for b number of minutes. I move the machine x inches per second and put roughly w amount of pressure on the machine. I make n number of section passes. When I'm finished I use procedure p to wipe it off. I do a,b,c to test to see if it meets what I'm looking for. If not, I do this or that to get me to my final place.

Another reason for this thread is it seems "final shine" is a little different for everyone. I've seen some that look like a jar of black ink. Then others have figured out how to remove micro marring and haze which is ok but without pix and techs it's hard to qualify what you're reading. So hopefully we can put stage pix with details for that stage.

Another benefit for me is posting something I think is good and have somebody else come along and with suggestions how to get to another level I didn't even know about.

Plus if I look at the product specs, I wonder if I do a M205 or PO106FA (http://www.autogeek.net/menzerna-nano-polish-po-106-fa-finishing-polish.html) and then go to a AIO that has a little cut like an Optimum Poli-Seal with the right pad combination, can we get that extra and also applying the polish at the same time and not having to waste money on a 4th product.

I've been experimenting with Meg's 105 & 205. Below is one of our cars when I finished with a white pad & M105. To finish, I used a Flex 3401, LC CCS white pad and probably went somewhere in the 1 to 2 minute range with little pressure. For some reason I like starting out on 3, making a pass, going up to 4 or 5 for another pass or two and then back down to 3, lightly, quickly going back over everything. Then doing a wipe down. I've experimented with IPA & just a towel and don't find that big of a difference in the end except IPA sometimes leaves a haze and I'll have to use QD to get a true feeling if I like the shine or not.

Weather has sucked here and this is about the best, most accurate pix I could dig up after all this. If memory serves I do have a wax or sealant on this for this pix.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/789/medium/RightRear.jpg

Car has been in the garage while I've been testing. I got some of the 85rd and tried a blue cobra pad.

I used the same techniques as with the 205 on a section. What I noticed, in using a 6" line of 85rd on the pad, on a 18x18" section, it seemed kind of thick and wet. It went straight to halogramish and really never went away like the other Menzerna's do when they break down. It was also kind of thick wiping off. Kind of gooey. Garage temp was around 65 if I recall. I know it was warmer than 60 but just can't remember the exact temp.

It didn't make things worse but there wasn't a noticeable difference between the section I tried to improve on versus the rest which the last step was down with M105 & a white pad.

I think my next test is going to be Optimum Poli-Seal with somewhere between a White, black or blue pad and I'll update this post when I have time to see the results of it.

In closing if you see something I'm doing wrong or should try differently please comment. Or better yet, post your detail procedures, including speeds, settings and amount of time spent & combination along with pix to share with everyone how to get that show car shine.

Update: I realized it wasn't fair to post about 85rd without a pix which was the point of this thread. Unfortunately, it's 37 & freezing rain outside and has been nasty for a couple of weeks or I get home after dark. Here's a pix of the hood. It's hard to get a good pix of the hood right now that shows everything equally. There is one section on the hood I want mention where I did the 85rd. The rest is just with the M105 & white.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/789/medium/after85rd2.jpg

RaskyR1
12-18-2009, 03:48 PM
Jeweling the paint using the rotary polisher, very fine finishing polish, foam pad with no cutting ability, while using the zenith point method is the best way to get max gloss on most paint systems.

This is of coarse assuming you have already removed all defects and finish is already swirl free.

Rotary
UF, PO85RD, FPII...
Blue/Red LC pads...Black on some of the harder clears

ZPM taken from Dave KG's Machine Polishing by Rotary Polisher - Full Guide


THE ZENITH POINT TECHNIQUE

A technique coined by rotary polishing expert, Brazo, to work diminishing abrasive polishes to ensure as best a finish as possible. This technique has been used and adapted by detailers – both professional and enthusiast alike – for some time. Every detailer has their own take on the method, and all will vary it according the the polish being used and the paint being polished. Here we look at the generics of the technique and how it can be varied to suit possible applications.

The basic outline of the technique is shown by the diagram below, taken from Brazo’s guide to rotary polishing:


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/DaveKG/Zenith.jpg

The idea of this method is to start at slow speed, and work up to the Zenith Point. During this stage, and the passes as the fastest speed, the original defects in the paint are being removed by the abrasives. However the abrasives of the polish are also causing their own lighter defects. These are removed by the right hand side of the above diagram, slowing the speeds back down from the zenith point. This removes the polish induced marring and holograms so that you finish with a crystal clear finish.



EXTENDING THE ZENITH POINT TECHNIQUE – THE ZENITH PLATEAU

Here we look at methods of extending the generic technique above to the working of various polishes on the market today. The guide is not polish or paint specific, and changing either will affect the choices of speed, number of passes and applied pressure. Typically when machine polishing, the majority of the work is carried out at speeds of 1500 – 2000rpm. Once you reach the “working speed”, you plateau at this point until the abrasives and worked, reducing speed only for the finishing passes to burnish the paint to a high gloss and remove any faint holograms that may be left.

Shown in the schematic below is a typical set of speeds and passes made to work a polish with diminishing abrasives, such as Menzerna PO85RD3.02 Intensive Polish:


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/DaveKG/ZenithPlateau.jpg

This method works the polish through its various stages of abrasives described earlier:
• 2 passes at 600rpm to spread the polish ready for use
• 2 passes at 1200rpm to begin working the polish
• 4 passes at 1500rpm to work the abrasives to remove the defect
• 4 passes at 1800rpm to continue working the abrasives to remove defects
• 4 passes at 1500rpm to remove inflicted marring with the now lighter cutting abrasives
• 2 passes at 900rpm to burnish the finish to a high gloss
A total of 18 passes per section may seem like a huge amount! However, with many polishes on the market today, a large number of passes are required to fully work the abrasives and get the best out of what the polish has to offer.

Shown in the diagram below is a schematic of the abrasives in a polish cutting through the paint to remove a paint defect and then burnish the finish, using the number of passes above:


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/DaveKG/RotaryAbrasiveDown.jpg

frosty
12-18-2009, 04:34 PM
Awesome, thanks Rasky's!!!!

RaskyR1
12-18-2009, 04:42 PM
Awesome, thanks Rasky's!!!!

No prob, but all I really did was copy paste someone else's hard work! :D

I've seen several good threads out there showing how to properly jewel the paint and most use some form of this method. Dave KG's write up is very in depth and has some very nice illustrations too. Todd Helme also created a very nice one over on TID.

frosty
12-18-2009, 04:55 PM
I know, I had already read that thread and it's great and I have the link bookmarked. Actually it's the reason behind this in my first post.

"For some reason I like starting out on 3, making a pass, going up to 4 or 5 for another pass or two and then back down to 3, lightly, quickly going back over everything." :)

Anyway, you took time to contribute something with great detail. So again thank you. The one thing I question about it is having to use a rotary. With my experience up until now I like finishing with the 3401. But then I haven't tried finishing with my rotary as of yet.

Mike Phillips
12-18-2009, 04:56 PM
Shine, which is kind of another word for gloss, is maximized by making the paint as smooth as possible.

After you have made the paint surface as smooth as possible then a quality wax or paint sealant will take you results to a little higher level as in taking your car's finish to its maximum potential.


:)

Lasthope05
12-18-2009, 05:07 PM
While the zenith technique is a great technique and I use it often for single steps or final polishing, it should be stated that it is only for the rotary. Numerous people have used the zenith technique on a DA and has found no significant differences since DA's do not cause their own marring, there is nothing for them to "clean up" after. Also you cant necessarily burnish/jewel on a DA either.

frosty
12-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Shine, which is kind of another word for gloss, is maximized by making the paint as smooth as possible.

:)

First, thanks for the response.

Next, I definitely agree but the question when do you know you have the paint as smooth as possible and exactly how do you get there? I know there is no black and white answer because each paint can be different but hoping to get some best practices here that helps everybody hone in with faster and with less frustration.

Also, is there only one polish, pad, machine combination that gets you to smooth as possible? I know that's a factitious question but my thoughts are if you look at 85rd and it has 2500 grit capabilities a cut level of one. Then you can probably take 205 or any other polish with the same rating and just as good of results.

Optimum Poli-Seal or any AIO like it. (That's just what I happen to have.)

From the description.

"The micro abrasives in the Optimum Poli-SealTM will ensure light paint correction and not just the hiding of imperfections. Poli-Seal can be used as a light swirl mark remover, a final polish, and a true wax and sealant"

I know, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see but if does what it claims it seems possible to find the correct pad to go with it based on the paint etc and get the same Gloss as using 85rd, Ultrafina or whatever.

To me I just cut out a step and a 4th product which to me would be important if I'm not sacrificing quality.

Showroom Shine
12-19-2009, 08:15 AM
Shine, which is kind of another word for gloss, is maximized by making the paint as smooth as possible.

After you have made the paint surface as smooth as possible then a quality wax or paint sealant will take you results to a little higher level as in taking your car's finish to its maximum potential.


:)
:iagree:Once I have it smooth,I use WGDGPS then top it off with Souveran Liquid. My LSP in this case is either Pinnacle Spray wax or crystal mist for the Extra POP!

Mike Phillips
12-19-2009, 10:14 AM
First, thanks for the response.

Next, I definitely agree but the question when do you know you have the paint as smooth as possible and exactly how do you get there?

I know there is no black and white answer because each paint can be different but hoping to get some best practices here that helps everybody hone in with faster and with less frustration.



First you're limited by the thickness or more accurately the thinness of the paint or film-build you're working on. So there's only so much you can do.

In a perfect world, you would sand the paint flat with something like $1500 or #2000 grit paper, then refine your sanding marks to the highest grit paper you can obtain and then remove your sanding marks and restore a smooth surface. This would give you maximum gloss.

Gloss comes from smoothness -Mike Phillips

Not everyone can wet-sand or damp-sand their paint and MOST people shouldn't. So the next best thing is to use a compound or a paint cleaner and just do the best you can at smoothing over the paint using a chemical approach and of course you can pick an choose a foam or wool buffing pad depending upon your chemical and machine choice.

Then continue with your polishing process till you finish out with the finest polishing product you can obtain and then lay down a few coats of a quality wax or paint sealant.

If you do these things and you do them to the best of your ability, then you will have done everything you can to take your car's paint to it's maximum potential and specifically to it's maximum gloss potential.

:)