Unique clay bar question...

[WRAPT C5Z06]

With polish, if the clear coat is harder, most of the time you have to use a more aggressive polish or pad to correct the paint. With clay bars, can the same logic be used for removing contamination?

[Lasthope05]

Yes you can. If a car has a harder clear you can sometimes get away with using a more agressive claybar without marring. Just make sure you are using a good lubricant.


(Dont take this the wrong way, but you should just post your questions in the claybar thread that you already have. This has been your 3rd thread about claybars and it would be alot better to ask a question in those threads instead of cluttering the forums.)

[WRAPT C5Z06]

(Dont take this the wrong way, but you should just post your questions in the claybar thread that you already have. This has been your 3rd thread about claybars and it would be alot better to ask a question in those threads instead of cluttering the forums.)
Good point. I just got a little too excited yesterday.

[Mike Phillips]

With polish, if the clear coat is harder, most of the time you have to use a more aggressive polish or pad to correct the paint. With clay bars, can the same logic be used for removing contamination?

2 comments...

When removing defects the softness or hardness of the paint matters because you're trying to remove small particles of paint in a controlled manner.

When removing above surface bonded contaminants the softness or hardness of the paint doesn't matter as it relates to the actual removal of the above surface bonded contaminants as the removal process is about abrading the contaminants, not the paint itself.

As for Clay Haze, which is a kinder and more gentle way of describing light scratches it's possible to put into paint when using aggressive clay bars, then theoretically if a paint is harder it will resist scratching better but I don't think this matters much when it comes to clear coat paints.

Clear coat paints can be very hard and still scratches very easily and then because of the clear over a colored base configuration of the paint system the scratches show up very easily to our eyes.

This is why clear coat paints are referred to as scratch-sensitive.


Back in 2002 when I first started posting to CorvetteForum I found all the members and even the gurus over there always talking about how soft the paint was on their Corvettes? I had know idea what they were talking about because from my background of working on zillions of different types of cars, I'm pretty good at comparing paint hardness between paint systems and I knew the paint on modern Corvettes was and is very hard.

I pointed this out long enough on that forum and MOL and even Autopia and in my classes that together with other peoples observations to the same paint that now days everyone has it figured out, but it wasn't always like that.

The key word is scratch-sensitive and the key problem is most people don't understand how a surface coating can be hard but still scratch very easily.

Ah.... forum history....


:)

[WRAPT C5Z06]

2 comments...



When removing above surface bonded contaminants the softness or hardness of the paint doesn't matter as it relates to the actual removal of the above surface bonded contaminants as the removal process is about abrading the contaminants, not the paint itself.






Yet again, Mr. Mike Phillips makes comes through with a perfect, easy to understand answer. :props:

[superwhite]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.

[Shane731]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.

There is an excellent thread on Meguiar's Online about this: Does Claying Really Remove Wax? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31966)

[superwhite]

There is an excellent thread on Meguiar's Online about this: Does Claying Really Remove Wax? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31966)
Read the thread, just a lot of back and forth over the subject. Still leaves me with no absolute answer.

[Shane731]

Read the thread, just a lot of back and forth over the subject. Still leaves me with no absolute answer.

IMO, claying removes at least some or most of the wax, but not all of it. Go back and read posts 23 - 25 in the MOL thread I posted. Note from some of the other posts that the car still beaded water even after claying, which might not necessarily indicate the presence of wax but rather the presence of silicones and whatnot from the spray detailer used as a clay lube. Also, as pointed out, going over the surface after claying with an IPA solution removed all traces of wax or spray detailer that may have been present. Presumably, if you used something non-chemical such as water as a clay lube, then you would have no beading at all, however you would run the risk of marring the surface since water itself obviously does not provide enough lubrication against the paint. I don't know that there is a definitive answer unless scientific testing is done. Just my two cents.

[Mike Phillips]

I just replied to that thread and I'll stand by my comment made in post #11 on page 2 and my new post #63 on page 7

:laughing:


My first answer in that thread is a form of presenting ideas in their extreme which helps sometimes on discussion forums because there's always a segment of members that take everything to extremes...

So to quote myself,





When you rub a clay bar with pressure over a waxed, painted surface are you adding wax?




That's a reply to this question,

Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

And while everyone can discuss and disect the idea into enternety, here's was my reply to my good friend Mikejl's conclusion,




I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike


Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,


Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube


I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:laughing:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!


:D

[Matt S.]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.

In my experience, claying does remove waxes and sealants.

Using an ultra fine grade like Pinnacle Ultra Poly Clay will diminish the effect if you want to do some spot removal and not have to re-apply your LSP right away. But after using a mild grade like DP, Meguiar's, Clay Magic, I've never found any sign of protection left behind - just a smooth, clean surface.

[Mike Phillips]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.


Read the thread, just a lot of back and forth over the subject. Still leaves me with no absolute answer.


Sometimes the scenario becomes a very simple decision...

Go
No Go

Go
If after claying your car's paint you think you may have removed enough wax or paint sealant to leave the underlying paint less protected than before you clayed the paint, then apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant. Besides insuring a uniform coating of protection, your car will look great and you'll get some relaxing exercise.

No Go
If after you clay your car's paint you don't think you've removed any substantial amount of wax or paint sealant, then skip waxing your car's paint.


I'm sure everyone knows this but just in case....

Automotive detailing clay contains a special type of abrasive that will abrade off above surface bonded contaminants but won't scratch the paint under normal conditions.



Normal Conditions = You're not using an aggressive formula clay bar for Professionals and you're using common sense when you move the clay over the paint, not Caveman Technique.



So in essence, detailing clay works like sandpaper to some degree except that after you've finished removing the above surface bonded contaminants, the idea is the clay bar glides over the lubricated paint, (which it does).

The above being true, the coating of wax or paint sealant is measured in microns and even sub-microns, it doesn't take much to abrade off most commonly available waxes or paint sealants.

So if you clay your car's paint, it's a good best practice to apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to your car's now naked paint.

If you don't think you removed any wax then let it go but in the real world, if you're claying your car's paint it's usually because after washing and drying the paint you then FELT the paint with your clean hand and felt contaminants, thus the reason you're claying in the first place.

Now follow me on this....
If you car has been exposed to the elements enough to have bonded contaminants to the degree that you feel the need to clay the paint, then it's probably been exposed to the elements enough that it's time to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Remember, car waxes and paint sealants are Sacrificial Barrier Coatings. The layer of wax or paint sealant sacrifices itself, (when it's attacked by something corrosive or abrasive), and gives itself up so your paint doesn't have to give itself up.


Make sense?

Clay on... wax on....

:)

[Kurt_s]

I'm in Mike's camp.

I always assumed that I had to reprep the paint and wax after claying. Better safe than sorry.

[superwhite]

I just replied to that thread and I'll stand by my comment made in post #11 on page 2 and my new post #63 on page 7

:laughing:


My first answer in that thread is a form of presenting ideas in their extreme which helps sometimes on discussion forums because there's always a segment of members that take everything to extremes...

So to quote myself,





That's a reply to this question,

Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

And while everyone can discuss and disect the idea into enternety, here's was my reply to my good friend Mikejl's conclusion,




Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,


Downward pressure
Number of passes
Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
Aggressiveness of the clay
Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...

:laughing:


Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!


:D

I think most os including mself are somewhat pickey that subscribe to forums like this, i enjoy it. Whith that said if there is even a chance I've removed some wax when claying, proven or not I will error on the safe side and apply more so , have fun and like the saying goes; wax on, waxoff!
Im the MAN