Pad/Technique suggestions

[frosty]

I've researched and read etc. I've went with the LC CCS pads. I've been experimenting with the Menzerna Power Gloss, SIP & Super Finish. Also, Megs #105 & #205. Per the recommendation of AG I usually try the orange pads with everything other than the finish products. I use white or gray with the finishing products.

What I find is I have to spend a ton of time with the orange pad. Also with the Meg's 105 it's a challenge to prevent the machine from jumping and to keep the polish from caking. I can do it but it's not much of an issue using the wool.

Plus most everything I've done, the stuff isn't coming out in one session no matter how long. I even use the Power Gloss and not much difference.

Also on two occasions now I've experimented with wet sanding, 2000 Unitgrit followed by 3000 and the orange with #105 or Power Gloss or #106 really doesn't seem to do anything. Tonight I went over a section 5 times and still could see the uneveness caused by sanding. Switching to the wool, 2 sessions and it was perfect.

With that said, I always find myself going back to a 6.5" Purple LC wool pad that came with some Flex machines I purchased and usually #105 or Power Gloss.

I keep reading wool is extremely agressive and only use it as a last resort.

I usually follow it up with a #205 or the SF and that gets me what I'm looking for.

With that said, I have some questions. If I'm using my Flex 3401 I'll use 5 or 6 setting. If I'm using my Flex 3403 when it's working, I don't go over 2. Also I really never put that much pressure on the machine because I don't want a big "uh oh".

However, I'll look in the show and shine and see persons claiming to use SIP and White pad (not always sure what brand) to correct things that are worse than what I'm working on.

I know pix don't show everything. However, I did an experiment with a red mustang fender & a black mercedes door and a brillo pad. I used the pad with no pressure just dragging it to make marks. I tried several combinations with the Orange pad and had to go to the wool and run two sessions with the wool and compounds to get them out.

This is getting long so I'll try to cut to the question. Should I be putting more pressure using the foam pads? Or should I be running the rotary a lot faster than 1500 RPM? I try to keep each as low and move the machine slower to try and allow it to work as well as keeping the heat down.

Or is it ok to if you use wool? I keep reading starting out with the least agressive combination and work up. However in thinking about it you can take down as little or as much with a compound like Powergloss as you can with SIP correct? So why not start with a 105 or Power Gloss if you are going to need more than one stage and use the test spot for determine how long you need to run your agressive combination.

I equate it to loading a truck with dirt. I can load it with a spoon if I wanted but I'm going to opt to do it with some kind of loader or excavator to get it done.

In the end it boils down to how much you have to shave. So say you are dealing with a vehicle that needs to shave down 1 micron of clear to correct the paint. So why would it not be better or equally as feasible to use a combination such as wool & Power Gloss for 30 seconds or whatever versus using say SIP & an orange and having to go 2 minutes and probably not get the same results in one session. (Again if you are planning to do follow up with a finish either way.)

I know there's a very fine line between trying to get something down as efficiently as possible but also not getting in a rush.

I keep ending back up at the same place to get the results I'm looking for but just trying to figure how others are getting results with combinations I'm not.

Don't get me wrong, with an orange pad and SIP I can remove some swirls and make pix look nice and a huge difference but to the eye, there is still a lot of stuff left I want out. Plus it takes a long time versus me taking PG or #105 and wool and figuring out how many passes I need to make.

Here is a pix of the trunk & hood of my C300. In the pix it looks shiny but in person fairly bad swirls left. It looks like this after SIP & Orange followed up with Super Finish & Menzerna. But up close the swirls are still pretty bad.

Trunk shot 1:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/TrunkReflection.jpg

Trunk Shot 2 (Again, the white spots aren't imperfections. However you can actually see some of the swirls just above the flash.)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/TrunkShine2.jpg

Hood Shot (The white spots are not imperfections, they are fibers or something in the air.)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/HoodReflection1.jpg

So I'm looking for other suggestions on pads other than the CCS's. Or I need to change something I'm doing with the machine.

I figure it's either pads, the speed setting on the machine, how much pressure I'm putting on it or how fast I'm making my passes. (I usually try to do the 1" per second with the DA and 3" per second with the Rotary.)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Rsurfer]

The 3403 is lighter than most rotary so it wouldn't hurt to put some pressure. 105 and a white pad should take care of most light marring. 105 and an orange pad is getting aggressive. In you last paragraph, I think you have it backwards... DA should be 1" per second and rotary about 3" per second. 1500rpm should handle most correction, but I have used 3 on some bad paint.

[87rx7chick]

edit: i am no expert this is my experience and what i have read:

i used a flex, with a purple LC wool/foam pad and i used 105, i have almost NO need to even use 205,
the orange pads are for moderate scratches, what would remove sanding scraches would be the LC wool, some wool are much more agressive then others, rotory vs DA also come into play.

yellow LC pad would be best bet if not using the wool. orange will prob not offer enough cutting power, i dont know i dont have enough experience with these pads yet, ask me friday when i get all my stuff!!!


all in all. start with wool and 105, follow the DA guide on autogeek.net. if you need further working bump up to 205, but you really shouldnt see much of anything after using the 105 and purple head properly on a clean surface.


to remove my 2000 grit sanding marks i used wool pad and high power rotory tool on #2 setting. it had alot of swirls and when i went to polish out with 3m polish i had holograms, i used 105 with the wool pad with help from steve and his flex, i have no obvious swirls or marking or anything. i could totally get away with not even finishing
with 205

so you have to ask yourself. are you working the product well enough, are you using to much, to little, what # are you using. how long are you working the product. theres alot of aspects that could go into under finishing with a product. even temperature of day and humidity.

using a foam pad conditioner to lightly moisten pad would be a good idea if your having issue with the pad bucking around a bit.

i would also like to add, some paint is less forgiving then other paint. factory paint is very unforgiving.

[Rsurfer]

i used a flex, with a purple LC wool/foam pad and i used 105, i have almost NO need to even use 205,
the orange pads are for moderate scratches, what would remove sanding scraches would be the LC wool, some wool are much more agressive then others, rotory vs DA also come into play.

yellow LC pad would be best bet if not using the wool. orange will prob not offer enough cutting power, i dont know i dont have enough experience with these pads yet, ask me friday when i get all my stuff!!!


all in all. start with wool and 105, follow the DA guide on autogeek.net. if you need further working bump up to 205, but you really shouldnt see much of anything after using the 105 and purple head properly on a clean surface.


to remove my 2000 grit sanding marks i used wool pad and high power rotory tool on #2 setting. it had alot of swirls and when i went to polish out with 3m polish i had holograms, i used 105 with the wool pad with help from steve and his flex, i have no obvious swirls or marking or anything. i could totally get away with not even finishing
with 205

so you have to ask yourself. are you working the product well enough, are you using to much, to little, what # are you using. how long are you working the product. theres alot of aspects that could go into under finishing with a product. even temperature of day and humidity.

using a foam pad conditioner to lightly moisten pad would be a good idea if your having issue with the pad bucking around a bit.

i would also like to add, some paint is less forgiving then other paint. factory paint is very unforgiving.Not trying to cause a flame, but PFW and 105 is lsp ready? What kind of light are you using for inspection and are you doing an IPA wipedown after 105?

[87rx7chick]

Not trying to cause a flame, but PFW and 105 is lsp ready? What kind of light are you using for inspection and are you doing an IPA wipedown after 105?

well i made an edit to the top of my post, i am no expert. idk what an ipa id either, or pfw.

i also didnt see any lights offered by autogeek or any recommendation to buy any lights. so i use the best light i know of, the sun.

i guess i am not ready to post giving advice to people quite yet...


edit:
though i apparently did not read far enough into autogeek.net tips, i do see they sell a spotlight. i'm defiantly going to be picking one up

[frosty]

The 3403 is lighter than most rotary so it wouldn't hurt to put some pressure. 105 and a white pad should take care of most light marring. 105 and an orange pad is getting aggressive. In you last paragraph, I think you have it backwards... DA should be 1" per second and rotary about 3" per second. 1500rpm should handle most correction, but I have used 3 on some bad paint.


First thank you for reading. I got to rambling and didn't realize just how long that post was.

Next you are correct I did have the DA & Rotary info backwards. I corrected it.

When I start putting pressure on, (This has been on junk panels.) I would guess the 15 to 20 lbs range, working in a 2ft area on 2 with the flex, the panel starts heating up hot to the touch and from what I'm told it should only be warmish. Would you say 15 to 20lbs with the 3403 is about correct or should I put more.

What I'm achieving with 105 & orange is removing Marring and some swirls. If you tape it off and do a side by side comparison, as I mentioned it looks like a big difference. However, when you look closely either at the right angle in the sun or you still see a lot left.

Also, when you say white & orange, what kind & size of pads are you using? On say a Mercedes with black paint with what I consider moderate swirls. I would say heavy since it's an 09, on average how many passes would you typically need to make or minutes would you need to put into a section to get it ready for an LSP?

Thanks again for your reply.

[frosty]

edit:
though i apparently did not read far enough into autogeek.net tips, i do see they sell a spotlight. i'm defiantly going to be picking one up

You can use Halogens as well or I do. Sometimes for the really fine stuff, I have to look at some different angles to see everything.

To answer your first post, yes I do an IPA wipedown. Actually I've trying to do it after every session sometimes just to try to see what's going on.

With 105 and whatever, I have light marring that I'm started to recognize to get a pretty idea of when I've done enough. But again most of the time with moderate stuff, it's after I take my purple wool to it.

To add to my previous posts, I just find the wool works is a lot smoother to operate the machine with in most cases.

Finally, I've read a ton of the how too articles on the DA & Rotary. I've watched the videos, I've been experimenting on junk panels. I'm still far from an expert but I somewhat have some base steps down to acheive what I want to acheive.

The reason for this post is it just seems I'm using wool & a heavy compount when others are getting the same results with a orange or what pad.

My goal here is to get efficient my process but since wool and say a 105 are really agressive, I just want to make sure I'm not forming a really bad habit or find out with the pressure and speed I like, my procedures are ok to standardize on.

Thanks

[SRHTX]

My goal here is to get efficient my process but since wool and say a 105 are really agressive, I just want to make sure I'm not forming a really bad habit or find out with the pressure and speed I like, my procedures are ok to standardize on.


Use this with 105:

Foamed Wool 6.5 x 1 Thick Polishing / Buffing Pad (http://www.autogeek.net/lc-foam-wool-pads.html)

That combo works very well, PLUS, that pad does not really get hot when you are using it.

My $.02

[frosty]

Use this with 105:

Foamed Wool 6.5 x 1 Thick Polishing / Buffing Pad (http://www.autogeek.net/lc-foam-wool-pads.html)

That combo works very well, PLUS, that pad does not really get hot when you are using it.

My $.02

Thanks SRHTX, those are exactly the wool pads I have and I get my best results with.

Also, I noticed exactly what you described above, the surface doesn't really get to warm when using it. The first couple of times I wondered if it was even working because the surface was relatively cool compared to using a foam pad.

But the combo you described above is what I like best so far. The reasons I run on average about half the time as using an orange foam pad. Even though I don't use much pressure with the orange, I pratically only have to hold onto the machine with the wool pads.

I assume I could get the same results eventually with an orange and compound but I don't see it worth taking a lot more time and using something that gets the paint quite a bit hotter in my experience.

I'd still like to hear others thoughts but I'm glad to somebody else post the same as what I'm experiencing with this combo.

[SRHTX]

Another thing. Once you have done one area, do not remove any of the polish. Just change pads and do the next step on top of the other. To remove everything in that one section, you can use:

Optimum Instant Detailer & Gloss Enhancer Quick Detail Spray, instant detail spray, spray detailer, waterless wash, opt quick detailer (http://www.autogeek.net/optimum-instant-detailer-17oz.html)

and wipe everything off. A high end detailer showed me how to do that and it works like a charm. Also, it saves you alot of time. hint hint..... :xyxthumbs:

[Mike Phillips]

I keep reading wool is extremely aggressive and only use it as a last resort.



Hmmm...

Wool is a tool and should be used when it's the right tool for the job. If you're sanding then use a wool pad with a rotary buffer to remove sanding marks.


As for finishing out 100% swirl free, that's just a matter of testing different pad/product/tool combinations until you get a recipe that gives you the results you're looking for to one small area, then duplicate this over the entire surface.

If you're thinking the CCS pads aren't working on your car's paint system then try a flat pad design like the Hydro-Tech Polishing pad or even the Meguiar's W-8006 or W8207 pads, both are polishing pads. You might even try a softer finishing pad for your lest machine step.

One thing for sure, besides pad style and foam formula, your choice of chemical is also a huge factor and just because one system of pad, product and process works on one type of paint doesn't mean it's going to work on all types of paint.


:)

[frosty]

Thanks Mike,

I'll look into those. I was thinking about trying the Kompressor pads as I like the shape and concept.

FYI. Here are some results of #105, Purple wool and about 30 to 45 seconds followed by white & 205

These pix are of the same car I posted the original pix.

Swirls

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/BeforeWool.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/BeforeWool2.jpg

After the twin process

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/uploads/24452/AfterWoolNWhite.jpg

When I save up and get a paint meter, I think the first thing I'm going to work on is taking a compound and an orange pad and working it 1 or 2 minutes with the 10 to 20lbs of pressure which seems typical for the majority testing an area.

Measure the thickness, then use the wool and compound for 1/3 to 1/2 the time and have real data.

Then take an Orange & compound and run if as long as I can for multiple sessions and see how much is actually coming off and try to take some guess work out of these types of conversations.

The goal will be trying to prove the theory on cars where you are 99% sure you'll need to do 2 stages, if you can be just as safe in trying to take the least amount of paint off to get the job down whether your using a wool or an orange pad and the only variable is how long you work on a section.



Thanks everyone for your responses. I really appreciate the help!

P.S. I did this with my Flex 3401. Very nice machine, and glad I upgraded to it.

[SRHTX]

Here are some results of #105, Purple wool and about 30 to 45 seconds followed by white & 205

The goal will be trying to prove the theory on cars where you are 99% sure you'll need to do 2 stages, if you can be just as safe in trying to take the least amount of paint off to get the job down whether your using a wool or an orange pad and the only variable is how long you work on a section.

Having the Flex and being advised to use the Purple wool pad, I too feel exterior work can be done in 2 stages. I love Anthony for showing me that AWSOME pad and how you can do every section one on top of another one. With removal of it all with an Optimum Spray Wax. :props:

[frosty]

Having the Flex and being advised to use the Purple wool pad, I too feel exterior work can be done in 2 stages. I love Anthony for showing me that AWSOME pad and how you can do every section one on top of another one. With removal of it all with an Optimum Spray Wax. :props:

Thanks for the confirmation. After tonight and seeing what it's doing with my 3401 and with minimal effort, I think I'm sold. At least until I run into something I can correct with it. But I have the Menzerna, Yellow pads and just ordered a purple Kompressor pad. Additionally I'll eventually get some of the pads Mike suggested and hopefully I'll be covered.