New Lake Country Hydro-tech Cyan Pad Problem...not happy.

[O.C.Detailing]

Okay, so I bought 3 Lake Country Hydro-tech Cyan pads. I love how they work, but I got less than a day's worth of use out of one and the following happened:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk116/adrock2003/pad.jpg

I'm not happy about this, but I'm sure AG will make it right. Just wanted to start a thread in case it happened to anyone else. I've only had 2 pads in the 30 or so other pads I've ordered that have had issues, but this is the first time a loop portion of a pad has completely separated for no reason. I used compound only with my Griot's DA and cleaned with nothing but water. :( Not sure why the back of it came off.

HELP!!!!

Adam

[2old2change]

Got both sizes and no problem so far. Hand washed them in the sink and air dried. First problem I've heard of on these. Never had Lake County pads before but happy with them for what it's worth. Hope your replacements do the trick.

Paul S

[Mike Phillips]

Call Customer Care in the morning! :xyxthumbs:


I've used a lot of these in all sizes and haven't had a single problems with separation like this so far.

I have had separation like this with a variety of foam pads whenever I've used them at high speed on DA polishers for long periods of time. It's a combination of the heat and violent oscillation action over time and sometimes chemicals once they start to seep down to the adhesive that all work together to cause these kinds of results.

Nothing lasts forever but but good customer service comes close.

What were you working on?


:)

[Chris27182]

Mike, I also had the same thing happen to me with the Girots DA Polisher when we were working on the MGB last 2 weeks ago.

[O.C.Detailing]

Yeah, I had a feeling it was something to do with heat and compounding on the Griot's. I was using my Griot's and M105 to polish out some wet-sanding marks on a freshly painted Colorado pick-up as a trade of services to have my car painted.

I've never had a problem with any of the LC pads I bought, it's just that I JUST bought this one and it lasted one day and then that happened to it. I've got pads that are just falling apart, but the backing is still on them, and these are pads that have been used in direct sunlight, on black cars using Meg's Diamond Cut 2.0 compound and pretty much everything in between and haven't had a back come off. I'll call tomorrow and see what we can do about it. Thanks for the reply Mike and everyone else.

[Buckskincolt]

Yeah, I had a feeling it was something to do with heat and compounding on the Griot's. I was using my Griot's and M105 to polish out some wet-sanding marks on a freshly painted Colorado pick-up as a trade of services to have my car painted.

I've never had a problem with any of the LC pads I bought, it's just that I JUST bought this one and it lasted one day and then that happened to it. I've got pads that are just falling apart, but the backing is still on them, and these are pads that have been used in direct sunlight, on black cars using Meg's Diamond Cut 2.0 compound and pretty much everything in between and haven't had a back come off. I'll call tomorrow and see what we can do about it. Thanks for the reply Mike and everyone else.'ve b

I've been using mine with a Griot's DA and haven't had any problems. I've washed them 3 or 4 times. So far these are my favorite pads and will replace the CCS pads unless this becomes a problem. Keep us posted on what you find out!

[O.C.Detailing]

I'm sure it's just a fluke guys, but I wanted to make a post about it just in case. The only other issue I had was with a CCS 6.5" pad where the backing on the pad wouldn't interact with the hooks on the backing plate. That was a waste of an almost new pad too.. :( Other than that though, I've had probably 30 or so CCS pads ranging from 4"-6.5" with no issues.

I'm with you as well Buckskincolt. These pads are AWESOME on product use and retaining their firmness. They will replace my CCS pads as well. ;)

I'll call in today and see what AG can do to help me out. I'm sure it'll be fine. :D I have 2 other Cyan pads that are doing fine and 3 tangerines doing fine so far as well.

[Mike Phillips]

Yeah, I had a feeling it was something to do with heat and compounding on the Griot's. I was using my Griot's and M105 to polish out some wet-sanding marks on a freshly painted Colorado pick-up as a trade of services to have my car painted.




How were the sanding marks coming out with this approach?

I've removed #1500 grit with a DA Polisher but when I compare how long it took for the small area I worked to what can be done using a rotary buffer with a 8" quality wool cutting pad there's no comparison. The rotary buffer is the right tool for the job when it comes to sanding down and buffing out entire cars and even entire panels.

Let me qualify that statement also by saying the goal is 100% sanding mark removal, not just a shiny surface.

You sand paint flat and then make it shiny with a DA Polisher pretty easy, but if a person is honest and gets down and looks at the surface closely, you can create a shiny surface and still have hundreds of either straight-line scratches or pigtails depending upon how you did the sanding step.

The goal is always 100% defect removal, not a shiny surface, this means removing paint and this means a rotary buffer.

The Griot's ROP is from what I can tell, the most powerful DA style polisher on the market as of today, I'm not sure what's going on with the Meguiar's G110 but if there's a new model to be introduced we'll know next Tuesday and I for one would like to get my hands on any new version to compare to the Griot's and the XP.

But seriously, you will never see me taking on a wet-sanding project with the idea of using a DA style polisher to remove the sanding marks, it's just not worth the time and effort involved when a rotary buffer is so much faster for a job that already takes a long time.

Just from experience, trying to remove sanding marks using any PC style polisher with any foam pad and a compound means pushing all tools involved to their limit as far as performance goes and that's why the adhesive failed on your pad. It's not that Lake Country doesn't put out quality products as they do, you just pushed the adhesive to it's limit and if you continue using the Griot's ROP to try to remove sanding marks with foam pads chances are pretty good you're going to continue to see failures in Velcro adhesion to foam pads and you're going to make the Griot's ROP suffer.


How much of the Colorado Pick-Up truck do you have left to sand and buff?


:)

[O.C.Detailing]

The entire truck was hand-sanded (3m wetordry 2500 grit) by me, so the sanding marks were extremely light. I used a medium density sanding block as well. He hasn't painted the bed of the truck yet, but once it's painted, I'm going over the entire thing again. I just bought:

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=66615)

Which is a huge step up from what I was using, which is the REALLY cheap Chicago Tools rotary, so I'm doing the rest of the truck with that instead and then going over the entire thing with a LC CCS 6.5" white polishing pad and M205. I just have synthetic composite wool pads... :( I need to get me some real wool pads for the hardcore jobs like this.

The sanding marks were coming out completely and leaving no sanding scratches behind, though it would have been a TON faster if done with a rotary and wool. I was just trying to be easy on the paint since I'm not too experienced with the rotary just yet and didn't want to destroy a new paint job for the sake of speed.

Just to clarify, I do know what you mean by removing the sanding marks and not just making it shiny...I know all too well. I just hate having to clean up holograms after spending hours and hours buffing with a rotary. I need to get with and AG member and have them teach me, in-person, how to use a rotary and get a flawless finish. I also have a few panels I'm going to test on as well.

Also, I've put most of my other pads through a LOT worse abuse and none of them have failed like this. I've got pads that are literally having the edges worn off of them because of the power of the Griot's, but that's all that's wrong with them, even when they're cleaned with a light APC and warm water and rinsed like crazy and stored damp! This is the first pad I've ever had this problem with, so I'm calling it a fluke and not worrying that it will happen again.

Besides, I called AG this morning and it's all taken care of. AG rocks, as always! You'll have my business till the internet fails. lol

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

What Mike was getting at was don't try to remove the marks and make it shiney at the same time. You want to remove the sanding marks then work on making it shiney. One step at a time.

[O.C.Detailing]

Yep, I understood. He's talking about removing the sanding marks completely even after it gets shiny. If you look VERY closely, there are still marks until you level them completely out and get a glassy surface, minus any light orange peel left in the paint.

VR8 will tell you how intense I can get on certain issues with paint. :( I'm my own worst enemy.

[VR8]

VR8 will also remind you to post your happy ending to the original post ... hint, hint.

[Mike Phillips]

I was just trying to be easy on the paint since I'm not too experienced with the rotary just yet and didn't want to destroy a new paint job for the sake of speed.



Nothing wrong with that.

For years I've typed,

Don't try to learn how to use a rotary buffer on a black Viper"


It's just not a good idea. :D

The first time I used a rotary buffer with a wool pad was after I painted a car and then proceeded to sand and buff it, I had absolutely no clue as to what I was doing. I should have learned how to sand and buff on a junker car or a hood.

In my home town I was good friends with all the owners of the local wrecking yards and one time I asked the owner and was given permission to go out into the wrecking yard and sand and buff on anything I wanted to that wasn't roped off.

I took a bunch of extension cords, a bucket of water with sandpaper soaking, some compounds, polishes and pads and with my trusty, dusty rotary buffer in hand I sanded and buffed an anything that wasn't crumpled from a wreck.

The idea was to get some experience working on all kinds of paint without having to remove a hood or trunk lid and then pay for it and drag it home. Worked out pretty good. I also spent some time rubbing clear coat paints out by hand to see what could be done by hand.

Big point is, sanding and buffing out an entire car is a HUGE job, you don't realize how big of a job it is until you show up at the car and start making your game plan.

So hats off to you for even tackling this kind of job in the first place!

:dblthumb2: :dblthumb2: :dblthumb2:

[O.C.Detailing]

Hey Mike, thanks for the shoulder of support and kind words. :D I am now in the process of using a rotary and M105 with the LC Hydro-tech Cyan pads to polish out a freshly wet-sanded and air-bagged 1995 Chevy S-10, full-custom show truck. I'm taking a few before, during and after pics, but even with the rotary, the buffing is going slow. I'm not sure I'm ready for wool yet, especially on a show truck that needs to have a near-flawless finish.

And just to clarify, Autogeek has come through on my pad issue and AGAIN, surpassed my expectations. The customer service and commitment to quality for not only forum members but the general public is simply mind-boggling. I throw a HUGE thank you to Bobby, Mike and Meghan for helping me resolve my problem and then some, though the extra was totally unnecessary, it is GREATLY appreciated and will be used in my endeavors of becoming a better detailer.

Now to get over my fear of wool pads and get one onto a rotary and go to town on my car when it gets painted. haha! :D

[Mike Phillips]

Now to get over my fear of wool pads and get one onto a rotary and go to town on my car when it gets painted. haha! :D




Hard to believe, but in some ways wool is safer than foam, it just seams that with a foam cutting pad it can be really easy to heat the paint up and melt it, my guess is due to the increased surface contact area with foam versus wool.

Even though you want to buff wit both styles of pads flat to the surface when working on a flat surface wool seems to be less prone to burning paint by overheating it and melting it.

Get a good quality wool cutting pad and a metal style spur and practice on something besides this show truck project.


:)