Single Stage Paint- issues with scratches

[02nissanISR]

OK I was working on a Miata yesterday just buffing out the black hard top. It had some scratches but they were not deep according to fingernail test. the top had pretty good oxidation so went at it with megs ultimate, the megs soft buff 2.0 cutting pad (maroon), and the pc 7424. I quickly found out I was dealing with single stage pain as my pad turned black. Ran the pc between 5-6 for the correction and could not touch the scratches. This was my first encounter with just base coat paint, so i need some help.

1. Do single stage paints tend to have a harder finish requiring a more aggressive method?

2. Is this something inherent with the Miata tops? A harder finish that is. (anyone worked on one out there?)

Feed back please

This is a before shot the top actually turned out really nice aside from the scratches (no afters, but the scratches look the same)

[Mike Phillips]

I quickly found out I was dealing with single stage pain as my pad turned black.


That's a pretty good indicator. Most early Mazda's that were not metallics had single stage paints. I've held classes for all the the SoCal Mazda clubs multiple times and had the chance to work on plenty of red and black Miatas with single stage paints.



Ran the pc between 5-6 for the correction and could not touch the scratches. This was my first encounter with just base coat paint, so i need some help.


That's not technically a basecoat finish it's a single stage paint. A basecoat paint would be under a clearcoat paint and most if not all basecoats are flat, not glossy. They get their gloss from being topped with the clear layer of paint.

I downloaded the full size image to my hard drive and then uploaded it into your gallery for you as its so much nicer to actually see the picture than a tiny thumbnail in the thread. It's not that hard to upload to your gallery and then insert and image instead of just attaching it.

The scratches in this picture are called RIDS

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/miatascratches.jpg

RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

While they may not catch your fingernail, they are easy to see in this picture and if you buffed on the 6.0 speed setting with a cutting pad and Meguiar's Ultimate Compound then this is a really strong indicator they are pretty deep as that's a pretty aggressive approach for a DA Polisher and black single stage paint tends to be the softest paint there is to work on.



1. Do single stage paints tend to have a harder finish requiring a more aggressive method?


Just the opposite. I wrote this article back in the late 1990's and posted it to Autopia around 2004,

A lesson from white paint (http://www.autopia.org/forum/guide-detailing/80676-lesson-white-paint.html)

I see portions of it shared all the time when someone's trying to explain paint hardness. Guess I should start copyrighting my articles.




2. Is this something inherent with the Miata tops? A harder finish that is. (anyone worked on one out there?)


Generally speaking, black single stage paint is usually the softest paint there is to work on because of the pigment type. This isn't always true because you can mix a soft pigment with a really hard resin but that's why I used the words, generally and usually in this sentence. :)




This is a before shot the top actually turned out really nice aside from the scratches (no afters, but the scratches look the same)


Look like RIDS to me.

Sometimes you're better off just improving a defect and not trying to completely remove a defects. If you remove too much black paint you'll see primer.

:)

[02nissanISR]

Thanks for the lesson Mike and for correcting my thinking on hardness. Single stage really is a different animal. is there any other color specific characteristics out there or is this just something inherent with blk single stage(referring to your comment that blk was one of the softer single stage paints)

And thanks for pointing out my misuse of the term basecoat not sure what i was thinking there i knew that. I've done enough reading/research to fill a few volumes must have had a brain fart. I try not to talk over my own head and try to use the right terms so as not to mess anyone else up who is still learning like me. i will check your thread on lessons from white paint as the body of the Miata i was working on is white and showing its age (chalky) he wants me to try to do something with it so hopefully ill get some more gems (lessons)

If you have time could you give some tips on the full size pic upload Im no good at this stuff it was hard enough for me to figure out how to do attachments :D

thanks again for your advice on this :dblthumb2:

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for the lesson Mike and for correcting my thinking on hardness. Single stage really is a different animal. is there any other color specific characteristics out there or is this just something inherent with blk single stage(referring to your comment that blk was one of the softer single stage paints)


Single stage white paint is usually one of the hardest paints to remove defects out of. Again, this has to do with the pigment type. I cover this in detail in the linked article above.

I first learned about this from experience, basically I found working on black single stage paints pretty easy, then from experience I found I really struggled getting simple car wash scratches out of single white paint jobs. Later I meant a chemist from I think the "ink" industry or something to do with pigments and colorants and he explained to me just a little about where pigments come from and how when they are added to another substance they can affect that substance in a number of ways and one of those ways was hardness or softness.

Since most cars being manufactures have clear coats it's less of an issue these day unless you're working on classic cars but even then it's always a good idea to follow the old philosophy of,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

:xyxthumbs:




And thanks for pointing out my misuse of the term basecoat not sure what i was thinking there i knew that. I've done enough reading/research to fill a few volumes must have had a brain fart.


And just to note, my only purpose was for clarity, not condescending. I always consider hundreds, if not thousands of people, both members and lurkers will read the threads on AG into the future, so just want to help clarify for that reason.

:)




I try not to talk over my own head and try to use the right terms so as not to mess anyone else up who is still learning like me.

Me too...

There's always a handful of people in the cyber detailing world just waiting to find a mistake and then exploit it for their own nefarious reasons.


[QUOTE=02nissanISR;262983]
i will check your thread on lessons from white paint as the body of the Miata i was working on is white and showing its age (chalky) he wants me to try to do something with it so hopefully ill get some more gems (lessons)


Sounds like my favorite type of car to work on. Try to get good before pictures before doing any work on the hood or deck lid.

Once you make a shiny spot on an oxidized hood it kind of ruins the before pictures. Here's something I wrote a few years ago as it pertains to doing Extreme Makeovers and capturing before and after pictures.


"If you ever do an extreme makeover on a car or some other project, remember the power in the after shots is created in the before shots"




If you have time could you give some tips on the full size pic upload I'm no good at this stuff it was hard enough for me to figure out how to do attachments :D

thanks again for your advice on this :dblthumb2:

Your request is actually a hot item on my to-do list but I have too many projects on my to-do list to get to it at this time. I've written dozens of articles with screenshots like this on MOL and it's wrong to simply copy and paste them over to here, so I need to re-write them fresh. But there's a forum group just for "How to do things on forums" on the MOL forum just for the purpose of hosting articles like how to work with images on forums etc.


:props:

[ScottFW]

Might as well chip in my two cents here since I have a black '94 Miata. I have pretty much given up on trying to keep it perfect all the time. It's tracked several times a year so there are other aspects of the car that I focus on more than the paint, but once a year I touch up the little chips it accumulates and give it a good polishing with the PC and, lately, Meg's 105 & 205. I use Wolfgang Fuzion over DGPS 3.0 and it keeps the car looking respectable.

I acquired a hardtop last year. Got it cheap because it was the victim of a crappy back yard respray. This thing was hideous, but at the time I didn't care because I bought the hardtop primarily for the aero benefit on track. Turned out I couldn't live with it being that ugly so I went to town on it. Even after wet sanding to even out the crappy spray job (1500 and 2500 grit) and polishing there were some RIDS that were too deep to remove without taking excessive amounts of paint with them. I wound up masking off the deeper scratches, filling them by applying multiple light coats of touch-up paint with a toothpick, then wet sanding to blend them in, then polishing again with 105/205. I'd guess I spent 10-12 hours on the top but it came out great. Those scratches in your pic will likely require a similar approach (filling with touch-up paint, etc.) because you'd be darn near down to the fiberglass before you polished them out. If that's the factory paint it's probably what Mazda called "Brilliant Black." The paint code is PZ and you can buy a bottle of touch-up at the dealer for $5-10.

If you're working on an early white Miata, good luck and be careful. "Crystal White" Mazdas (not just Miatas) at least through '94 (and possibly later, I forget) often exhibit paint peeling due to bad paint-primer bonding from the factory. It usually starts around the gas filler door, wheel arches, or other panel edges. People have been known to remove big flakes of paint by merely rinsing down their car with a garden hose. :eek: As much as I complain about the maintenance of black single-stage paint, I'm really glad my Miata isn't white.

[02nissanISR]

And just to note, my only purpose was for clarity, not condescending. I always consider hundreds, if not thousands of people, both members and lurkers will read the threads on AG into the future, so just want to help clarify for that reason.

:)

No offense taken. Im just not that sensitive when Im wrong, Im wrong. Wisdom is the application of knowledge, if therefore I ignore those with more knowledge than myself on a given topic and do not apply what I learn, I cannot be considered truly wise.

Read the article on white paint good stuff thanks for that
One other question the guy Im doing this work for is in a Miata club (real shock there seems like a prerequisite for owning one) anyway the work i do for him could lead to others.

At what point did the Miatas goto a clear coat or is it just the non-metallic ones that were single stage? This is so I know what I'm getting into before I get into it.

thanks again for the help

[02nissanISR]

Might as well chip in my two cents here since I have a black '94 Miata. I have pretty much given up on trying to keep it perfect all the time. It's tracked several times a year so there are other aspects of the car that I focus on more than the paint, but once a year I touch up the little chips it accumulates and give it a good polishing with the PC and, lately, Meg's 105 & 205. I use Wolfgang Fuzion over DGPS 3.0 and it keeps the car looking respectable.

I acquired a hardtop last year. Got it cheap because it was the victim of a crappy back yard respray. This thing was hideous, but at the time I didn't care because I bought the hardtop primarily for the aero benefit on track. Turned out I couldn't live with it being that ugly so I went to town on it. Even after wet sanding to even out the crappy spray job (1500 and 2500 grit) and polishing there were some RIDS that were too deep to remove without taking excessive amounts of paint with them. I wound up masking off the deeper scratches, filling them by applying multiple light coats of touch-up paint with a toothpick, then wet sanding to blend them in, then polishing again with 105/205. I'd guess I spent 10-12 hours on the top but it came out great. Those scratches in your pic will likely require a similar approach (filling with touch-up paint, etc.) because you'd be darn near down to the fiberglass before you polished them out. If that's the factory paint it's probably what Mazda called "Brilliant Black." The paint code is PZ and you can buy a bottle of touch-up at the dealer for $5-10.

If you're working on an early white Miata, good luck and be careful. "Crystal White" Mazdas (not just Miatas) at least through '94 (and possibly later, I forget) often exhibit paint peeling due to bad paint-primer bonding from the factory. It usually starts around the gas filler door, wheel arches, or other panel edges. People have been known to remove big flakes of paint by merely rinsing down their car with a garden hose. :eek: As much as I complain about the maintenance of black single-stage paint, I'm really glad my Miata isn't white.

haha funny you should mention about the white paint he has a silver with a rag top which i did the Ragg Topp clean and protect process yesterday (good thing to its about to rain cats and dogs here in Maryland) but his wife has the hard top with faded, chalky, "PEELING" in spots white paint so thanks for the heads up on that because he wanted me to work on that next. :dblthumb2:

click on the thumbnail you can see paint peeling under the headlight

[ScottFW]

At what point did the Miatas goto a clear coat or is it just the non-metallic ones that were single stage? This is so I know what I'm getting into before I get into it.


All the metallic/mica versions going back to 1990 should have a clear coat. I "believe" they started clear coating the standard base colors (white, black, red, etc) in 1999 but don't take that as the gospel.

[ScottFW]

click on the thumbnail you can see paint peeling under the headlight

The exposed headlight in your pic means that car is an "NB" (1999-2005). The earlier "NA" cars (1990-1997) had the pop-up barn doors. That flaking off of the plastic lower bumper nose is minor in comparison to crystal white paint disease, which affected the metal panels too and is MUCH more severe than what's in your pic. By 1999 the worst of the problem had been fixed so I think you'll be fine.

[SRHTX]

Scott,

Do you mean a PAIN IN THE A** Miata like this WHITE one? These lil cars will really make you hurt since they are so small. My body hurt like you could not imagine. ugh

BEFORE LOOK:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/srhtx/Mazda/Miata/Before/HoodofCar.jpg

AFTER LOOK:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/srhtx/Mazda/Miata/Front.jpg

[ScottFW]

These lil cars will really make you hurt since they are so small. My body hurt like you could not imagine. ugh
I know what you mean. I'm 6'3" myself so it's a bit tiring crouching down so much. For a polishing session (or anything more than a wash & wax) I'll put it up on jack stands so I don't have to lean over as much, and I'll use a mechanic's stool so I can sit down while working on the sides. It saves the legs and back a little.

[02nissanISR]

Scott,

Do you mean a PAIN IN THE A** Miata like this WHITE one? These lil cars will really make you hurt since they are so small. My body hurt like you could not imagine. ugh

BEFORE LOOK:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/srhtx/Mazda/Miata/Before/HoodofCar.jpg

AFTER LOOK:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r269/srhtx/Mazda/Miata/Front.jpg

Looks like the same car Im working on. Different wheels. Funny to here you guys talk about what a pain these cars are to work on I thought the exact opposite thinking, smaller car quicker turn around, did not even think of the leaning, squatting, crouching factor. These were my first Miatas and all I did was roof work. Fabric protection an one and the hard top on the other. Guess thats how we get sucked in huh:D

[SRHTX]

Well, the NEXT Miata I work on, I'm going to charge a lil bit more for all the PAIN it will give me. he he he

[bmwstephen]

don't mean to thread jack or resurrect and old thread but what does everyone think of these scratches? SS black

http://i.imgur.com/80BZolv.jpg

[02nissanISR]

LoL. Definitely a thread resurrection. I'm surprised I still got a notification. Anyway hard to tell from the pic but the top long scratch looks like its on the surface mostly. But that bottom one looks like it could be deeper. If you run you fingernail over it can you feel a ridge? If so its into the clear. If not you might be able to buff it and lessen the appearance can't say for certain it will go away depends how deep it is. :buffing: