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Mike Phillips
08-17-2009, 10:34 AM
The Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/rough-draft/19985-clearcoat-failure-photo-gallery-archive.html)

Clearcoat paints were introduced to production cars in the U.S.A. starting in the early 1980's and since that time the technology has continually improved to create automotive paint systems that will last a long time as well as provide a beautiful finish with great gloss, clarity and shine.

We now have entire generations of people that have only owned cars with what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system; they have never owned, nor worked on a car that has a single stage paint system.

From time to time a new member will join our forum and ask for help removing oxidation from their car's finish not knowing that the problem with their car's paint, (basecoat/clearcoat), is not oxidation, but is in fact clearcoat failure.

Clear coat paints, when exposed to too much sun over time and without out proper care, like the paint on a brand new Mustang will deteriorate throughout the entire matrix or thickness of the clear layer of paint. You can't fix it by abrading the surface because the problem isn't just on the surface, it's throughout the entire layer of paint.


The primary problem most people experience with the clearcoat finish on their car is swirls. Swirls are actually scratches in the paint and they block your view of the color coat under the clear coat.

Swirls can be removed because they are topical, that is like oxidation the swirls are in the upper surface of the layer of clear paint and all you have to do is use a compound or a paint cleaner and remove a little paint from off the surface, which will act to level or flatten out the surface again. See the below thread for more information.

What it means to remove swirls, scratches and water spots out of automotive clear coats (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/faq/19986-what-means-remove-swirls-scratches-water-spots-out-automotive-clear-coats.html)


Single stage paints like the type of paint that came on a 1965 Mustang will oxidize and the problem can be fixed because the problem is isolated to just the upper surface of the paint. The way you fix oxidation is to abrade or remove just a little bit of paint off the surface to expose a fresh layer of paint or what we call a fresh base.

Top: 1965 Mustang with single stage finish. Bottom: 2009 Mustang with a basecoat/clearcoat finish.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/719/medium/RedMustangs.JPG


Classic cars with oxidized single stage paints are easy to fix, (in my opinion), as well as fun to work on.


The thing to understand is that there's a huge difference between these two types of paint systems; the good news is you can usually fix true oxidation but the bad news is in most cases once a clearcoat finish deteriorates to what we call clearcoat failure there's really nothing you can do to permanently fix the problem and restore a nice looking finish that will hold up over time. Usually you have to repaint the affected sections or repaint the entire car, or learn to live with the problem.

Examples of clearcoat failure.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/ClearcoatFailure001.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/ClearCoatFailure005.jpg


The basecoat layer of paint under the clearcoat layer is generally dull or flat, even when brand new; it gets it's gloss and clarity from the clear layer of paint on top of it. Once the clear layer flakes or peels off you cannot polish it to make it look good again as it has a flat or matte appearance.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/ClearCoatFailure006.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/ClearCoatFailure007.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/ClearCoatFailure008.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/clearcoatfailurebeginning.jpg



How to avoid clearcoat failure
1. Park your car out of the sun as much as you can.
2. Park your car out of inclement weather as much as you can.
3. Wash your car's finish with a non-detergent car wash
4. Put your car on a regular maintenance program that includes,

Washing
Surface evaluation
Using detailing clay to remove above surface bonded contaminants
Use a quality wax or paint sealant to protect the paint from the environment

:)

Mike Phillips
10-18-2009, 10:24 AM
Added a new picture to the Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive

Snapped this one with my iphone, the clear coat isn't flaking off just yet, just turning white.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/724/clearcoatfailurebeginning.jpg



Looking for a photo of a black car with the hood just barely starting to fail, it would look just a little cloudy or whitish, not a full blown rash.


:)

Mister B
07-16-2010, 11:10 AM
I thought you may want to see a few more photo's for your clearcoat failure archive.

These are different than the photo's you show above, but I believe this is probably the beginning of clear coat failure on a car that I am buffing out.

You can see the opaque white spots throughout the clear.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/894/medium/02_Clearcoat_Failure.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/894/medium/01_Clearcoat_Failure.JPG

William D.
09-15-2010, 10:45 PM
Mr. Phillips, is there a product you are aware of that can remove clearcoat, but not paint?

The failure gets to a point (and I know this) where it would be easier to simply removed all the bad clear (and what's left of the good) and either respray it, or buff and pray.

Mike Phillips
09-29-2010, 09:39 AM
Beginning Clearcoat Failure

Here is the best example I've been able to find that shows beginning clear coat failure, it's from a thread I created on MeguiarsOnline called the The Clearcoat Failure Photo Archive (http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20411)


Photos Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline
http://archive.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2600_8_30_06OG003.JPG



Since I have not been able to find a similar car with the beginning of clear coat failure to photograph for the AG forum, and because this is a very useful picture for helping people diagnose what type of problem they're having with their car's clear coat I've added to the Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive here on AG but have given proper credit to where I obtained the photograph.

Due credit where due credit is due.... which more people would do this...


:)

Mike Phillips
09-29-2010, 09:48 AM
Mr. Phillips, is there a product you are aware of that can remove clearcoat, but not paint?


Not in a way that does no harm to the underlying basecoat which is usually what a person asking your question really wants to hear.




The failure gets to a point (and I know this) where it would be easier to simply removed all the bad clear (and what's left of the good) and either respray it, or buff and pray.


It's more complicated than most people think... even if you could get ALL the clear layer off and do NO harm to the underlying basecoat, you would still have to scuff the basecoat and prep it for clear and by the time you start doing this you'll run into problems causing you to just sand it down and re-base it.

Once the clearcoat on a car disintegrates to the point where it looks like the black car here or worse... the only honest fix, and the only honest reply to this topic on any detailing discussion forum is,


The honest answer
In order to correctly fix the problem you need to either repaint the affected panel or the entire car.


No one like to hear the above and that's because so often a good re-paint will coat as much or more than the car is worth.

At least with the single stage paints from pre-1980 when the paint would oxidize, at least the average person with some elbow grease or a polisher could fix it...

See pictures in this thread...

The power in the after shots is created in the before shots (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/21216-power-after-shots-created-before-shots.html)


See how in this thread...

The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/25304-secret-removing-oxidation-restoring-show-car-finish-antique-single-stage-paints.html)

(http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/21216-power-after-shots-created-before-shots.html)
See picture on this product label...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/828/UltimateCompound.jpg



:)

Mike Phillips
09-29-2010, 09:50 AM
I thought you may want to see a few more photo's for your clearcoat failure archive.

These are different than the photo's you show above, but I believe this is probably the beginning of clear coat failure on a car that I am buffing out.




While there might be a problem with the paint in the pictures you've added, that's not what the majority of cars with clear coat failure look like, that looks like some type of prep work, or application problem when the car was painted, or something has affected the paint after it was painted.

Or maybe it was done on purpose?

Polka-dot Paint job?


:xyxthumbs:

Mister B
09-29-2010, 09:57 AM
While there might be a problem with the paint in the pictures you've added, that's not what the majority of cars with clear coat failure look like, that looks like some type of prep work, or application problem when the car was painted, or something has affected the paint after it was painted.

Or maybe it was done on purpose?

Polka-dot Paint job?


:xyxthumbs:

That may be.

I think the sun may be what actually affected it because the dots are only on the top panels of the car. The top of the trunk lid had the dots also, but when I removed the rear spolier to buff the entire trunk, the paint that was underneath the spoiler (protected from the sun) looked perfectly normal with none of those dots. That's why I though it was a type of clear coat failure. Like you said though, not what the majority of clear coat failure looks like.

Mike Phillips
09-29-2010, 10:02 AM
I think the sun may be what actually affected it because the dots are only on the top panels of the car.



Good deduction Watson...

If it's the sun, and that's likely, then my first thoughts are that there's a chemical problem during paint application as only "portions" of the paint were affected?

The sun shines down equally over the entire panel?

Were you able to remove all the spots? If so that means they were merely topical. If buffing had no effect then they are either below the clear coat or throughout the clear layer of paint.


:)

Mister B
09-29-2010, 10:06 AM
Were you able to remove all the spots? If so that means they were merely topical. If buffing had no effect then they are either below the clear coat or throughout the clear layer of paint.


:)

No, I was not able to remove any of the spots. I think they were throughout the clear layer. It was smooth as glass when i was done, but they were still there.

Here is the entire write up I did on that car with more pictures and description.

2002 Nissan Sentra Extreme Makeover - [Exterior Only]. (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/show-n-shine/27313-2002-nissan-sentra-extreme-makeover.html#post336534)

Mike Phillips
09-29-2010, 10:10 AM
No, I was not able to remove any of the spots. I think they were throughout the clear layer.



And there you go.... the problem is likely a problem with the actual paint or the application of the paint...


:xyxthumbs:

FUNX650
10-03-2012, 02:05 PM
Hi Mike...

Another CC Failure for your archive...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/medium/GMCCFailure2.jpg

:)

Bob

ShineMyCar
10-03-2012, 03:22 PM
CC failure is what led me to this site.

One question I haven't seen an answer to is : If I had been keeping a coat of sealant or wax regularly on the car for the past 10 years, would it have prevented CC failure, or is it something that just happens as cars age, whether you use Waxes, sealants, or just relied on the Clear Coat to protect the car by itself?

Thanks

Djshadyad6
10-03-2012, 04:14 PM
Can I be repaired with anything in the beginning stages Mike?

Mike Phillips
10-04-2012, 06:14 AM
CC failure is what led me to this site.

One question I haven't seen an answer to is : If I had been keeping a coat of sealant or wax regularly on the car for the past 10 years, would it have prevented CC failure, or is it something that just happens as cars age, whether you use Waxes, sealants, or just relied on the Clear Coat to protect the car by itself?

Thanks

In my opinion...

Doing "something" is better than doing "nothing".

Lots of people don't understand that the clear layer of a basecoat/clearcoat paint system is simply "clear paint" and it needs to be maintained just like any car paint. Neglecting it won't help it to last longer.

Also, a smooth surface will hold up better to the elements over time than a textured surface. I think I point this out in the third paragraph of this extreme makeover write-up.

Pictures & Videos: 2003 Honda Civic Extreme Makeover - Duragloss (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/54803-pictures-videos-2003-honda-civic-extreme-makover-duragloss.html)

Before
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1529/CoralsHonda006.jpg


After
This finish will last longer just because it's now smooth.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1529/CoralsHonda050.jpg



Also, you can add real UV hindering protection, see my comments on page two of this article...


Beginning Clearcoat Failure (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/29197-beginning-clearcoat-failure.html)







Can I be repaired with anything in the beginning stages Mike?


Here's two things I've been typing for years, the first one is something I always tell my son,

"You don't know what you can do until you try"

"Sometimes the most you can do is the most you can do"


Start by taking care of your car's finish with regular washing and waxing with some type of quality products.

Try not to inflict swirls and scratches into the paint in the first place so you don't have to abrade the surface and remove good paint to remove the swirls and scratches.

If you do have to abrade a car's finish, (compound or polish it), then always use the least aggressive products to get the job done.

If you live in a geographical area of intense sunlight AND you have to park your car out in the open exposing it to the intense sunlight, then use a product that is proven to provide UV protection. See my comments in this thread,

Beginning Clearcoat Failure (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/29197-beginning-clearcoat-failure.html)


:)