Is it true that...

[drastic_detail]

Is it true that the new M105 and 205 do not break down? What is the proper way to use these then? Thanx for the help guys!

[Matt S.]

What do you mean by they "do not break down"? They both break down very quickly, but do not utilize diminishing abrasive technology. The SMAT (Super Micro Abrasive Technology) is a bit different and I'm completely impressed.

I try to use M105 as sparingly as possible...preferably the equivalent of a nickel-sized amount distributed in a circle around the pad. I work it in on speed 6 right away - don't waste too much time spreading it or it will dry up. It will break down very quickly, cut fast, and finish real nice. How exactly it achieves this is beyond me, but I will not question the almighty M105. :D

M205 is simple, just use it like any other finishing polish. The working time is a bit longer and it's kinda like working butter into your paint. It really puts icing on the cake after using M105.


One thing I'd like to note is that M105 cakes up pads very quickly. I'll typically go through 4-5 pads for an average sized car. Once a pad becomes saturated, M105 loses effectiveness and turns into a big gummy mess.

[mrGolfRider]

What about the KBM? Isn't that essentially loading up the pad?

[dublifecrisis]

Right the KBM is essentially a method of how to work with non dimishing abrasives right? And a key part of that is priming the pad-not overloading it with product but making sure a small amount is absorbed into the entire surface.

Either way, the stuff does dry up quick and the pads get pretty darn gummy after even 1 panel.

Why they've become popular with DA use is because typically the DA doesn't produce the heat that is needed to break down the dimishing abrasives.

This is my understanding anyways.

[mrGolfRider]

I am not at all educated on the rotary. Is it the heat created from the wool pads that makes alot of those compounds work so well?? I tried the 105 the other day with a orange CCS pad on speed six, minimal pressure, maybe 5lbs, and it got warm, so I stopped. I guess I need a test panel.

[ScottB]

I am rather puzzled with the term/use on non-diminishing abrasives and yet suggesting this polish breaks down. It may flash, but it appears it is still cutting at full level due to its abrasives until removed.

[BarryK]

true, with the M105 and M205 the abrasives don't break down. They keep working until you stop working the product.

With the M105/M205 if you worked it on the surface for a minute, an hour, or a day, it's still going to be cutting since the abrasives themselves aren't breaking down. The one thing is though is that the M105 dries up quickly and that's effectively reduces and limits your work time on that product although if I find I need to keep working it after it's going dry I just mist the pad with a bit of water.

To me that's what so great about the M105 (and M205) - depending on HOW you work it, higher pressure, medium pressure, low or no pressure on the pad is really how much you can make it cut and work for you from a lot for more major corrections to finishing down VERY nicely without worrying about the abrasives breaking down on you before you are finished.

[ScottB]

my other concern is the amount of polishing sessions that can be done with a polish like 105, especially in the hands of a hobbist or weekend detailer. With the harsher cutting and ability to finish into a great final look, do you feel without a paint guage that you "might" reduce the CC and touch pigmented paint over several polishings on same car??

I have used SIP dozens of times on same finish without any harm noticed to date. In offering polishes to our clients on other forums I am hesitant of the 105/205 still due to liability concerns. I have had reported return posts where people have damaged paint with 105 on edges, but in fairness it is hearsay from a 3rd party.

I do however want 105/205 to have a fair chance if truly a safe alternative to SIP/Nano.

[BarryK]

my other concern is the amount of polishing sessions that can be done with a polish like 105, especially in the hands of a hobbist or weekend detailer. With the harsher cutting and ability to finish into a great final look, do you feel without a paint guage that you "might" reduce the CC and touch pigmented paint over several polishings on same car??

I have used SIP dozens of times on same finish without any harm noticed to date. In offering polishes to our clients on other forums I am hesitant of the 105/205 still due to liability concerns. I have had reported return posts where people have damaged paint with 105 on edges, but in fairness it is hearsay from a 3rd party.

I do however want 105/205 to have a fair chance if truly a safe alternative to SIP/Nano.

hearsay from a 3rd party... well, i'll always take that with a grain of salt.
On the other hand, M105 IS a huge cutting power of a compound, the highest in the Megs line-up plus it's in their Professional line so it's actually marketied to body shops, not consumers. Detailing enthusiasts know about it of course and we like it.
Can it harm a paint surface if not used properly? Of course it can but tell me of a compound or aggressive polish that can't do harm if used too much, too aggressively, or just plain used incorrectly. And are you concerned about M105 harming paint with a DA or with a rotary? As we know a rotary in the wrong hands can burn thru paint, especially on an edge, REAL fast, no matter what brand or selection of product is being used.

I understand your concern but I think you are singling out M105 in a situation that could easily be described for ANY compound or polish with a higher cutting power.

Hey, you are a Vette guy going by your avatar so that makes you "A OK" in my book :) and from your other posts I know your preference lies more with Menzerna products, but don't let less familiarity with M105/M205 compared to what you are more used to using scare you away from it. Have you tried it at all?

It may just be MY opinion, but I think any product is as safe or dangerous to use as the knowledge and experience of the user behind it

[ScottB]

hearsay from a 3rd party... well, i'll always take that with a grain of salt.


I did so also, and why I am asking your thoughts in an open forum without attack for ones preference versus another coming into play. So far , its seems like those pumping 105 on outside forums are indeed professional detailers and my concern is again with the hobbist versus professional.

I have used the original version (not DA approved) 105 in several situations, and have used 205. My beef is not with the 205 version at all as is a Finishing Polish. I am a Menzerna fan at heart as for the last 5 years they really have filled the best that polishing had to offer but always ready for a change if the bar is raised. I do however place polishes in three catergories generally speaking. Finishing, Swirl Removers, and Compounds.

My issue again comes with placing a heavy compound (105) into the hands of a hobbist without clearier warning. This person hears that 105 is the greatest polishes and finishes down to near perfect finish. So he casually reads all this Kenny Brown advice (from everyone except Kevin Brown of course since paper is not yet released nor is examples) and gets himself a PC, some pads, 105 and starts adding alot of pressure.

Again in closing, I really feel more emphasis should be placed in warning that 105 is quite abrasive, much more than SIP, and needs alot of additional care in its use. If you disagree ...thats cool too.

[BarryK]

sorry if you misunderstood, I was in NO WAY attacking your preference of product. In fact, while I have only used one Menzerna product I have no doubts Menzerna makes excellent products from their reputation.

Again, I will agree that anyone should be careful with M105 because of it's high cutting power but will also repeat that I feel the same caution should be heeded for any product that would be this aggressive.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, in fact I think that in many aspects of this topic we are actually in agreement. :)
As for a warning being placed on it that it is quite abrasive there actually already is on the container. They have the cutting power scale right on the front showing M105 is at the top of that scale showing how abrasive it is. Kind of hard to be more clear than that I would think, and other than that if a consumer goes and buys a professional oriented product and ignores the cutting power scale and "over-uses" the product whose fault is that?
To me it's kinda like a 16yo kid with a brand new drivers license going out a buying a brand new Corvette ZR-1 (ok, a rich 16yo kid :) ). If he abuses it and overdrives the car and wrecks because of his lack of experience is it the cars fault or his?

BTW, hot chick in your avatar with the car :)

[ScottB]

sorry if you misunderstood, I was in NO WAY attacking your preference of product. In fact, while I have only used one Menzerna product I have no doubts Menzerna makes excellent products from their reputation.

Again, I will agree that anyone should be careful with M105 because of it's high cutting power but will also repeat that I feel the same caution should be heeded for any product that would be this aggressive.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, in fact I think that in many aspects of this topic we are actually in agreement. :)
As for a warning being placed on it that it is quite abrasive there actually already is on the container. They have the cutting power scale right on the front showing M105 is at the top of that scale showing how abrasive it is. Kind of hard to be more clear than that I would think, and other than that if a consumer goes and buys a professional oriented product and ignores the cutting power scale and "over-uses" the product whose fault is that?
To me it's kinda like a 16yo kid with a brand new drivers license going out a buying a brand new Corvette ZR-1 (ok, a rich 16yo kid :) ). If he abuses it and overdrives the car and wrecks because of his lack of experience is it the cars fault or his?

BTW, hot chick in your avatar with the car :)

Did not feel you were attacking in any way, it was nice to have a discussion on this polish without attack. On several "other" forums I was challenged for hesitating to offer this combo as the current best in polishing. My reluctance was they were professionals and the forum supports hobbists and I personally felt some additional warning was needed first. I thank you for your thoughts and look forward to personally playing with 105/205 more.

[Bunky]

Is it true that the new M105 and 205 do not break down? What is the proper way to use these then? Thanx for the help guys!

Back to the topic.....

In my first use, M105 has a very short working time measured in passes such as 3 or 4 passes. If you let it flash (continue to work after it goes clear), it will leave micro-swirls. This was done using a UDM and a 5-in white pad. T

The pad priming idea and just adding a bit more polish (not the normal 3 pea size drops) helps. Also, if you use a larger pad (like Meg's softbuff) helps too. The key seemed to be to not let it go clear but leave some haze.

If you do get the micro-swirls, M205 will clean it up. I found it worked faster than say my Wolfgang polishes.