Thin single stage paint questions - 1987 Volvo 240

[tog244]

Thin single stage paint questions - 1987 Volvo 240
(https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/129629-thin-single-stage-paint-questions-1987-volvo-240-a.html)


Thin single stage paint questions?


I have a 1987 volvo 240 with some very poor paint. I stumbled upon this link https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/11/28/detailing-tips-for-vintage-single-stage-paint and read through it a few times and decided to give it a try.

I have a griots garage synthetic clay pad, a bottle of #7, and a bottle of mothers CMX ceramic coating in place of waxing at the end.

So far, I have clayed most of the car and I'm pretty happy with my results, however I still have some contaminants like bird poop stains that I haven't been able to remove along with bad swirling.

Based on the instructions from my link, next I should clean the paint (once I'm done claying), however I don't know my paints condition and I'm not too confident in it because of a few spots that are rubbed down past paint so I planned on going straight to #7 saturation.

What are my options here?

I'm trying to stick to a budget here and just want my paint to look pretty good for as long as possible.

1: Should I keep claying in the hopes of getting all of the contaminants out or is it a lost cause,

2: And will #7 help with paint swirls if I can't confidently otherwise clean the paint?



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Since this is your first post to the forum,

Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:


Hope you don't mind I edited your post and turned one large chunk of text into something easier to read and then answer.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Thin single stage paint questions

I have a 1987 volvo 240 with some very poor paint. I stumbled upon this link

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/11/28/detailing-tips-for-vintage-single-stage-paint

and read through it a few times and decided to give it a try.




Here's the link to the above article on our forum. The couple in the article basically read my original article on how to restore antique and original single stage paint, followed my recommendations and the rest as the saying goes is history.


Detailing tips for vintage single-stage paint (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/102060-detailing-tips-vintage-single-stage-paint-steve-berry-hemmings-motor-news.html) - by Steve Berry at Hemming's Motor News Blog

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/1971_Volvo_003.jpg









I have a griots garage synthetic clay pad, a bottle of #7, and a bottle of mothers CMX ceramic coating in place of waxing at the end.

So far, I have clayed most of the car and I'm pretty happy with my results, however I still have some contaminants like bird poop stains that I haven't been able to remove along with bad swirling.



The Griot's Synthetic Clay Pad, (a polymerized rubber with abrasives in it), is only good for removing "above surface bonded contaminants".

For any type of paint defects below or IN the paint - you would need to ABRADE the paint with a compound, polish or AIO - something with abrasives in it.






Based on the instructions from my link, next I should clean the paint (once I'm done claying), however I don't know my paints condition and I'm not too confident in it because of a few spots that are rubbed down past paint so I planned on going straight to #7 saturation.

What are my options here?

I'm trying to stick to a budget here and just want my paint to look pretty good for as long as possible.

1: Should I keep claying in the hopes of getting all of the contaminants out or is it a lost cause,



No. See what I wrote above.






2: And will #7 help with paint swirls if I can't confidently otherwise clean the paint?



#7 is a water soluble oil that uses Meguair's trade secret oils that have the ability to bring out and/or restore the full richness of color in the pigments of single stage paint.

It will not remove defects like bird poo stains or swirls and scratches. If you rub enough the oil plus the "material" you rub with can abrade the paint and level it a little bit helping to improve the appearance of below surface defects but using a true, dedicated compound, polish or one-step cleaner/wax, (an AIO), will do more to remove swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation.


Can you share a picture? If possible - e-mail it to me and I'll share it for you and sharing pictures on a "forum" tends to be a tick difficult.


Mike.Phillips@autogeek.net (Mike.Phillips@autogeek.net)


:)

[Mike Phillips]

More...

Here's the link to my original article on how to restore antique and single stage paints without abrasives plus a few other articles on the topic.


All Mike Phillips #7 Show Car Glaze Articles in one place (http://tinyurl.com/y7zyk863)


Here's my articles on #7 I recommend reading them all...


This is the original, and incredibley in-depth article on the topic of restoring antique piant with #7 - LOTS of great info and pictures.

The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-articles/25304-secret-removing-oxidation-restoring-show-car-finish-antique-single-stage-paints.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/859/7CapillaryAction02.jpg






Wayne Carini 1954 Hudson Hornet Original Paint Restored by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/63665-wayne-carini-1954-hudson-hornet-original-paint-restored-mike-phillips.html)

Here's a walk-around video I mad showing the before condition of the Hudson and explaining the technique for using #7 to restore the original paint.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_aQL-ULIg



Here's the TV commercial we did with the Hudson and using #7 plus Pinnacle products, which are the products I actually did use to restore the paint over the entire car.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcdNIJzRKC0






The #7 Rub Down Technique by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/100613-7-rub-down-technique-mike-phillips.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=104000





Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze - Goodbye to an old friend - hello to a new friend! (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/100726-meguiars-7-show-car-glaze-goodbye-old-friend-hello-new-friend.html)

http://www.showcargarage.com/gallery/files/1/800_M07Collection.jpg






4 Steps to restore single paint paint - 1972 Mercedes-Benz 280 SE (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/66800-4-steps-restore-single-paint-paint-1972-mercedes-benz-280-se.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1932/1972_Mercedes_280SE_003.jpg




On Autogeek.com


Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze (http://www.autogeek.net/meg7showcarg.html)




:)

[Mike Phillips]

More...


Here's the link to a full write-up I did on restoring the original lacquer paint on a 1937 Packard plus a video.


The link has dozens of pictures showing the process plus before and after. One of the most difficult single stage projects I've ever undertaken. :dig:


LIVE Detailing Class - Restoring original paint with Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/live-detailing-classes-videos/126206-live-detailing-class-restoring-original-paint-meguiars-7-show-car-glaze.html)



Here's the IN-DEPTH on how to use Number #7 to restore antique and original paint, as well as some Car Detailing History thrown in.


https://youtu.be/nS4jfCWsqT0




People have been asking me for years, even a decade now to make a video showing The Number #7 Rub Down Technique for original and antique single stage paint. All these years I've been waiting for the right car to demo this technique plus capture the before and after pictures.

Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4016/The_Number_7_Rub_Down_Technique_001.JPG



Today my long-time friend, Mike Stowe brought me his all original 1937 Packard with the original factory lacquer paint.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4016/The_Number_7_Rub_Down_Technique_002.JPG




Here's my antique #7 collection including a very rare can of #7

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4016/The_Number_7_Rub_Down_Technique_036.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4016/The_Number_7_Rub_Down_Technique_037.JPG



:)

[tog244]

Thanks for all of the information, I really appreciate it! I will email you some pictures- its pretty rough though. I'm worried that polish or compound will eat right through my paint as there doesn't seem to be much, so would you recommend skipping it and just biting the bullet that the paint isn't going to be perfect or should I try and get it perfect (so to speak). I have no doubts that it will be vastly improved, however I would hate to get it 90% of the way there and ceramic coat it if its possible to get it better.

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks for all of the information, I really appreciate it!



No problmo... that's what we do around here --> information. :cheers:






I will email you some pictures-



Here's the pictures. At full size these were 3024 pixels wide by 4032 pixels tall and weighed in at 1.55 megabytes. In other words, HUGE picture files. I've resized to 600 pixels wide and then uploaded to your free gallery (https://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/123865) here on AutogeekOnline. I also renamed them to Volvo.001, Volvo.002, Volvo.003, Volvo.004, Volvo.005 - to make them easier to work with on the line.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_0011.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_002.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_003.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_004.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_005.jpg







its pretty rough though.



Yup.






I'm worried that polish or compound will eat right through my paint as there doesn't seem to be much,



Yup.







so would you recommend skipping it and just biting the bullet that the paint isn't going to be perfect



Yup.







or should I try and get it perfect (so to speak).



I would rub the paint down with Meguair's #7 a few times and the seal it with either an old school Carnauba wax like Collinite 845 or Meguiar's M20 Polymer Sealant and then stick a fork in it, call it good and kick it out the door.






I have no doubts that it will be vastly improved, however I would hate to get it 90% of the way there and ceramic coat it if its possible to get it better.



If you rub this paint down with Meguiar's #7 it's going to be funky trying to then install a conventional ceramic coating, (the kind that typically comes in a tiny glass bottle), BECAUSE part of prepping the paint for this type of coating is to use a PANEL WIPE, (a panel wipe is a SOLVENT), and the panel wipe will CHEMICALLY STRIP THE PAINT - or in other words, REMOVE the #7 oils and likely make the paint look DULL - before coating it, thus doing what I call,

Working backwards


A better option to me would be to rub the paint down 2-3 times with the #7 and these really nice #7 towels from Griot's Garage,

Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #7 Show Car Glaze (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Fmeg7sho wcarg.html)

Griot's Garage PFM Wax Removal Towel - 4-pack (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Fgriots-pfm-wax-towel.html)


Then instead of using a conventional ceramic coating, do this instead - use the 303 Graphene Nano Spray Coating.

Here's my review on this product,

Review: 303 Graphene Nano Spray Coating (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews-by-mike-phillips/128115-review-303-graphene-nano-spray-coating.html)


303 Graphene Nano Spray Coating

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4183/303_graphene_001.JPG




Here's how I apply it and recommend to others to apply it - INCLUDING getting the orange Rag Company towels I show, use and recommend.


Recommendation: Microfiber Applicator Pad for applying 303 Graphene Nano Coating Spray (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews-by-mike-phillips/128391-recommendation-microfiber-applicator-pad-applying-303-graphene-nano-coating-spray.html)



Extra Large Microfiber Applicator Pad (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Fextra-large-mf-applicator.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/722/Best_303_Applicator_00.JPG


Mike Like - The Rag Company FTW Premium Orange Microfiber Towel (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews-by-mike-phillips/128837-mike-like-rag-company-ftw-premium-orange-microfiber-towel.html)



The Rag Company FTW Premium Orange Microfiber Towel

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4244/FTW_Premium_Orange_Microfiber_Towels_001.JPG



I believe based upon years of real-world hands-on experience working on single stage paint - the products and process I've listed will enable you to take the paint on this Volvo to its maximum potential while also preserving as much of what's left as possible.

Abrading it with an abrasive polish could be done on the vertical panels, but for the horizontal panels, rubbing the paint down a few times with the #7 and the the Griot's PFM Wax Removal towels, the TOWELS will be your ABRASIVE and the Trade Secret Oils in the #7 will GENTLY restore what's left of this old, thin, brittle dry paint.


That's what I would do.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

More...

I cropped out the pertinent section of the bird dropping picture to show just the damage caused by the bird poo the resized to 1000 pixels wide and also put this in your gallery (https://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/123865).


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/500/Volvo_006.jpg


This is a Type II Bird Dropping Etching. Here's my article on this topic where I gave the two types of bird dropping etcings their name for the car detailing industry. (someone had to do it and I couldn't find any volunteers)


Two Types of Bird Dropping Etchings (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-and-frequently-asked-questions/24924-two-types-bird-dropping-etchings.html)


And here's what I wrote back in 2010 for this Type II bird dropping defect.


Type II Bird Dropping - Fractured/Wrinkled Etching

Type II Wrinkled Etchings are usually too deep to fix safely.

The problem is the paint fractures, (splits apart in tiny lines,), or wrinkles as the paint swells and bunches together. In both instances, the resulting defect is throughout the clear layer of paint and not topical. Thus trying to remove it will require removing so much clear paint that you will likely expose the basecoat, or colored layer of paint which has a dull appearance. For this reason it's not safe to try to remove a Type II Bird Dropping Wrinkled or Fractured Etching.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/719/BirdDroppingEtchingWrinkles.jpg



I would not recommend try to "polish" or "compound" the Type II Fractured/Wrinkled Etching in the paint on the Volvo as nothing good will come from it and in a worst case scenario - you'll expose primer.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

With paint like this you really need to take the 30,000' point of view or what I call,

The BIG PICTURE

Outside of repainting the car, the most you can do is the most you can do and the most you can do is bring some life back to what's left and that's where the #7 excels for vintage paint. The oils in the #7 have the unique characteristic of restoring the full richness of color to the PIGMENTS. That's how it works.



Here's my article on this topic,

"Taking your car's paint to it's maximum potential" (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/27081-taking-your-car-s-paint-s-maximum-potential.html)



Here's another article I wrote for our industry,

Paint Condition Categories (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/51281-paint-condition-categories.html)



The paint on your Volvo falls into catagory #7 Extreme Oxidation


It might also be category #9 Unstable - but you won't know until some time passes after the #7 rub down.

And if the red paint fades back to dull after the #7 rub down after a few weeks go by, then the paint is category #11 - Paint the Point of No Return.


But... you don't know what you can do until you try.


:cheers:

[Mike Phillips]

Last post...

My good friend Kirby, also an alumni student after taking 3 of my car detailing classes, recently shared this project.

Meguiar's No.7 Glaze for Single Stage - Bondo? (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/129584-meguiars-no-7-glaze-single-stage-bondo.html)



In post #3 of the above thread, I shared what I think is the most important aspect of these types of projects and that's getting GREAT before shots.

Why?

Because AFTER you do the paint restoration - you can NEVER go back in time to get the before shots as it will be too late. And it's the BEFORE shots that create the POWER in the AFTER shots.


From 2009

The power in the after shots is created in the before shots (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/tricks-tips-techniques/21216-power-after-shots-created-before-shots.html)



Hope all of the above helps...


:buffing:

[tog244]

You've been a huge help, last things: the mothers cmx spray coating is a ceramic coating in a spray bottle, but I assume that without cleaning the paint with a degreaser (reversing the #7), it won't be able to bond to the surface. Does the 303 work differently and not need a clean surface? also, I heard somewhere to save the paint that comes off when cleaning a single-stage car and you can use it to respray the car. Any input on this? Keep in mind this would be a cheap harbor frieght paint gun and just trying to cover up a couple of those really bad spots I sent you.

[Mike Phillips]

You've been a huge help,

last things: the mothers cmx spray coating is a ceramic coating in a spray bottle, but I assume that without cleaning the paint with a degreaser (reversing the #7), it won't be able to bond to the surface.



Ouch! I can't even imagine wiping paint I've meticulously hand polished for a day if not days with a DEGREASER. :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:

If you want to use the Mothers CMX Ceramic Spray Coating, keep it simply. Wipe the #7 off meticulously and then simply apply the CMX Ceramic Spray Coating according to directions. Repeat a second time. Whatever you get you get.

Or you could wash your car with a quality car wash after wiping off the #7 as the car wash and the car wash mitt will further remove any extra or residual polishing oils from the #7 and then dry and apply the Mothers CMX Ceramic Spray Coating.

The thing you're fighting is you're working on SINGLE stage paint, which tends to be porous as compared to a car with a clearcoat layer. Chemically stripping porous paint tends to dull it down thus you're working backwards. Aleast if the idea was to create beauty with protection.






Does the 303 work differently and not need a clean surface?



It needs a clean surface but I've had good luck applying directly after a #7 Treatment.

EXAMPLE - The Corvette has the ORIGINAL single stage metallic paint and it was the worst paint I've ever worked on.

A few weeks ago I used the 303 Graphene Nano Spray Coating to seal the original single stage paint on a 1969 Corvette after an intense and aggressive paint correction process using a wool pad on a rotary buffer.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4217/1969_Corvette_Original_Paint_001.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4217/1969_Corvette_Original_Paint_002.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4217/1969_Corvette_Original_Paint_003.JPG



Point being,

This is really old single stage paint and the 303 Nano Spray Coating seem to apply and wipe-off just find and look at the shine.








also, I heard somewhere to save the paint that comes off when cleaning a single-stage car and you can use it to respray the car. Any input on this?



I'm sorry, but this would NEVER work. Polish the paint, apply "something" to it and then take care of it moving forward.







Keep in mind this would be a cheap harbor freight paint gun and just trying to cover up a couple of those really bad spots I sent you.



Just polish and seal those bad spots and move on in life. Don't take something really simply and turn it into Rocket Science.



:dunno:

[DUBL0WS6]

I'd probably use an old school product such as Meguiars #26 or Collinite 845 on single stage paint after using #7.