long throw and product application

[usernamed]

The great people at Griot's clearly state that their long throw polishers are not -ideally- suited for applications waxes/sealants due to heat build up, accepting this is the 15mm perhaps better suited than the 21 (.59 compared to .86" inch ?) for applications or is the phenomena observed regardless of length of throw?

[Mike Phillips]

The great people at Griot's clearly state that their long throw polishers are not -ideally- suited for applications waxes/sealants due to heat build up,




Doesn't sound right to me.

Depends on the type of wax or sealant and how you're applying it. This is why when I type, I've VERY SPECIFIC with each and every word I choose and use.


There are two general categories of waxes and sealants


Cleaner/Waxes - AIOs - Cleaner/Sealants - Different names for the same thing

Products that clean and/or abrade the paint and also leaving the surface sealed. You would use this on a car with paint in NEGLECTED condition and when machine applying this type of product part of the goal is to remove swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation. Thus you will be WORKING the product over the surface and creating heat and thus want LOTS of pads.



Show Car Waxes - Show Car Sealants - Finishing Waxes - Finishing Sealants

Products that ONLY seal the surface. They are intended to be used on paint that is in GREAT condition. Thus it doesn't need any correction. For this type of wax your goal is to simply apply and spread over the paint a uniform layer of the product. You're NOT going to WORK the product. Thus no heat will be created and you do an entire car with one pad.


I teach all the above in my classes. I point this out just because I always see experts saying you can learn everything you need to know by watching YouTube videos and while they are a great resources, there's nothing like taking one of my classes where I do a Brain Dump. Imagine taking a class where everyone of the articles, reviews or even in-depth replies is spilled into the class?:


I love Richard Griot and all his team and many of his team are long-time friends and very good friends. So I'm not going to say what you've posted is wrong, but I will say that I've used long-stroke free spinning random orbital polishers to apply both categories of product with ZERO issues.


Don't know if this helps?


By the way,


What are you working on?

What condition is the paint?

What are you trying to accomplish?



:)

[Bruno Soares]

I have also heard that from one of the videos Griot's posted, saying the longest throw they'd recommend to apply a wax is the G9. 15/21mm were not recommended to apply wax.

Having said that, I'd use them no problem with an AIO. As a wax spreader, maybe use a short throw machine or hand apply if you don't want to chance it with the long throw models.

[usernamed]

Tnks for the replies-should anyone wish to confirm the advisory regarding the long throw machines the info is clearly posted on the Company website-

G15 Long-Throw Orbital Polisher


- Griot's Garage (https://www.griotsgarage.com/product/g15+long+throw+orbital+polisher.do)

select more details

should see this

"It should be noted that long-throw polishers are not ideally suited for application of waxes and sealants. Their large throw tends to cure the wax unevenly with the esceptionof our Boss Finishing Sealant whose formula is designed to comply with the heat cycling of long-throw orbits. The G8 or G9 are our most suitable tools for wax applications"

Research has yielded a general consensus (?) that pad stall will result in those free wheeling machines with an orbit range of 8mm or so.

Additional help much appreciated.

[Bruno Soares]

To apply a wax pad stall is not an issue, you won’t put any pressure on the polisher and will end up using speed 2 or 3, just enough to keep the pad gliding. If it’s stalling it’s either too slow or you’re putting pressure on the polisher.

[usernamed]

Without rotation will there still be a uniform amount of whatever put onto the surface ?

My questions come from a need to replace a failed buffer not for a specific vehicle or existing issues-use will be for hobby rather than business but I always buy the most tool I am able .

[Mike Phillips]

"It should be noted that long-throw polishers are not ideally suited for application of waxes and sealants. Their large throw tends to cure the wax unevenly with the esception of our Boss Finishing Sealant whose formula is designed to comply with the heat cycling of long-throw orbits. The G8 or G9 are our most suitable tools for wax applications"

Research has yielded a general consensus (?) that pad stall will result in those free wheeling machines with an orbit range of 8mm or so.




The above makes sense but from my experience - it's not a problem.

They reference their BOSS Finishing Sealant and this is like a one-step cleaner/wax and in most case you ARE going to WORK it over the paint as a follow-up step to a more aggressive paint correction step using one of the other BOSS products.

But for a lot of other one-step products - NON-Griot's - I just haven't seen it as an issue. Also - I was speaking from a "bigger picture point of view" that was referencing products in general, not a specific Griot's project. Just wanted to add this. :)


One thing for sure, Griot's makes great products. They make great abrasive technology as well as all their other stuff. You can't go wrong.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Without rotation will there still be a uniform amount of whatever put onto the surface ?

My questions come from a need to replace a failed buffer not for a specific vehicle or existing issues-use will be for hobby rather than business but I always buy the most tool I am able .




The answer is "yes".

If applying a NON-cleaning wax or sealant, then pad rotation is not important or vital as you're just spreading out a layer of product.

If applying an AIO type product, then "yes" you need pad rotation to do the correction work.


From what you've shared, I would look at the Griot's G9 instead of the BOSS 15 and 21.


I just demonstrated this tool to damp sand here. Lots of power. Less pad stalling issues due to the short stroke too.


Learn to machine sand TODAY! LIVE Detailing Class at 3:00pm Eastern Time (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/live-detailing-classes-how-to-videos-with-mike-phillips-and-yancy-martinez/128742-learn-machine-sand-today-live-detailing-class-3-00pm-eastern-time.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4239/LIve_Wetsanding_004.JPG



:)

[PaulMys]

I would think the only reason Griot's would not recommend the 15/21 for wax application would be solely the "Idiot-proofing" factor.

[usernamed]

To all I thank you again. Mike, if I may take up a bit more of your time-I have used the Klasse twins for more years than I care to remember-with this info could you please recommend a machine / backing plate(s)/ and pads? as this is a retirement gift the Mrs. has 'authorized' an amount which would cover any buffer or combo of buffers currently available as she, in her own description, places this expenditure in the 'minor' category-what a gal!.

Of course I understand that any purchase is ultimately done at my own risk and would not expect any guarantee of satisfaction or suitability for intended application.....

[Mike Phillips]

I would think the only reason Griot's would not recommend the 15/21 for wax application would be solely the "Idiot-proofing" factor.



I agree. So many mind-blank people in the world today it forces companies to bubba-proof everything to the Nth degree.

Back when I worked at Meguiar's - a guy bought Meguiar's Cleaner/Wax and used it on his Chevy Avalanche. He applied it to the ENTIRE outside of the Avalanche including all the pebble textured plastic cladding. Of course it dried white, stained the plastic and was difficult to remove.

He contacted Customer Care to complain. When they asked him,

Why did you apply the wax to the plastic cladding?

His answer was,

Well, the instructions on the bottle didn't say to NOT apply it to the plastic cladding.


BOOM. The reason companies have to create products and directions and instructions for the lowest common denominators among us.







To all I thank you again.

Mike, if I may take up a bit more of your time-I have used the Klasse twins for more years than I care to remember-with this info could you please recommend a machine / backing plate(s)/ and pads? as this is a retirement gift the Mrs. has 'authorized' an amount which would cover any buffer or combo of buffers currently available as she, in her own description, places this expenditure in the 'minor' category-what a gal!.

Of course I understand that any purchase is ultimately done at my own risk and would not expect any guarantee of satisfaction or suitability for intended application.....




I would go with either the Porter Cable or the Griot's G9. These are are the same type of tool, that is they are short stroke, free spinning random orbital polishers. Very very safe. But when used with good technique, very capable. The Griot's G9 would be the better option. But I'm still a huge fan of the PC.

As for the Klasse Twins? I've used them just enough to know I don't need these two products for the kind of detailing I do. I know a lot of people love them and that's what's so nice about the market place - we can all choose and use the products "we" like.

If you want to get more correction that the Klasse AIO then get a quart of the BLACKFIRE One Step or a pint of the 3D Speed. Both are better one-step type products in my experience that the Klasse AIO.

For a topper, get the BLACKFIRE BlackIce or the 3D Poxy - again - both are better sealing products than the Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze.


A few years back we made this video. It really doesn't explain what the different types of polishers are, what they do or why they are different. :dunno:


https://youtu.be/ZtRAlV3e_40



Then a few weeks ago Yancy and I made this video. This is accurate information. This video hits the nail on the head. This video tells about your different polisher options and then explains what each "type" of polisher is and how it works.


https://youtu.be/rQ6dAgx5UYk



Here's a good primer video that covers a LOT of topics related to order of steps and correct techniques. This video shows the Porter Cable polisher but you could substitute ANY type or brand of orbital and all the information will still apply.



https://youtu.be/ulWXODgg8V4



:cheers:

[usernamed]

Thank you

[usernamed]

As an update

Ordered and received a Griots G9 with the 5 /2” kit and am convinced that the best choice was made for my needs and feel that this tool most probably fit the requirements of the vast majority of the ‘prosumer’ market.

Customer service was typically Griots package received in four days, nearly across country.

Thanks to all for the help

[oneheadlite]

I think you're going to be happy with this machine. I've really dug mine, and definitely feel it was an upgrade in experience from the GG6 (which was no slouch!).

One thing I'll say - just because it's a "short throw", don't think you need to stick with just the thin 5.5" pads to get the job done. While that was certainly true back with the earlier machines (PC, GG6, etc), I've been surprised to find times where either a thick 5.5" pad or even a thick 6.5" pad (on the 6" backing plate of course) turns out to be the right pad for a certain spot. Example would be the front fenders/hood on my wife's Q5 - a regular 6.5" pad turned out to be the easiest pad to maintain rotation.

Let us know how it goes!

[PaulMys]

One thing I'll say - just because it's a "short throw", don't think you need to stick with just the thin 5.5" pads to get the job done. While that was certainly true back with the earlier machines (PC, GG6, etc), I've been surprised to find times where either a thick 5.5" pad or even a thick 6.5" pad (on the 6" backing plate of course) turns out to be the right pad for a certain spot. Example would be the front fenders/hood on my wife's Q5 - a regular 6.5" pad turned out to be the easiest pad to maintain rotation.



This is 100% the truth! The G9 has what feels like twice the power of the old GG6. (And like you said, it was no slouch!)