Help with 15 year old paint job

[Turq65]

Help with 15 year old paint job



Hey there,

I recently got a 1965 F100 pick up. It's been resprayed once in its life about 15 years ago.

When I got it the paint needed a lot of love to get some oxidation and swirls off. I washed and clayed the paint and could tell it needed wax.

I used a DA with a heavier foam pad, then medium, then finishing. I used some Meguiars 105 and 205. It definitely brought a nice luster and some depths back in the paint, cleaned up some of the swirls and oxidation.

The paint feels like glass now but on the top, hood and top bed rails there are these little marks. They almost look like like water spots but I'm not sure. You can't feel them at all. I tried to wetsand a small portion on the back rail and it didn't remove them either.

Can you tell me what they are and how I can get rid of them.

Thanks so much

72278

72277

72279



:buffing:

[Mike Phillips]

but on the top, hood and top bed rails there are these little marks.

They almost look like like water spots but I'm not sure. You can't feel them at all.

I tried to wetsand a small portion on the back rail and it didn't remove them either.

Can you tell me what they are and how I can get rid of them.





Hi Turq65,

Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:

I grew up driving a 1965 Ford F100 that my dad custom build. His had the 390 Big Block with the 4-speed transmission. Fun truck to drive.


Here's one of your pictures,

https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/attachments/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/72277d1611933581-help-15-year-old-paint-job-20210129_071924-jpg


I can't really tell what the defects are?

Here's the deal though - defects are either TOPICAL or SUB-SURFACE. The fact that you have tried WET SANDING a Test Spot with no effect tells me the defects are probably not removable.


You didn't state specifically if this custom paint job is

Single Stage
Basecoat/Clearcoat


That would help me to provide a tick more insight.



:)

[Turq65]

I am not sure on the paint it seems like base coat with top coat. I am the 3rd owner and it was painted before I had it. My wet sanding was pretty minimal though. I had never done it before and followed along on a how to video. I only had 1500 and 1000 grit sand paper so didn't get to aggressive. If you zoom in on the paint pics the little dots you see almost look like water spots or some type of small circular blemishes. They are only on top surfaces though. Should I try a more aggressive compound, or wool pad, or maybe some more aggressive wetsanding in a small area? I did look up fisheyeing but the guy I bought the truck from said the paint never had fisheyes in it so I thought I had ruled that out.

[Mike Phillips]

I am not sure on the paint it seems like base coat with top coat.



It's real easy to know.

When you buffed - did you see COLOR coming off the truck and onto your buffing pads?

IF yes - you're working on a single stage paint system.

If no - then you're working on basecoat/clearcoat paint system.





I am the 3rd owner and it was painted before I had it. My wet sanding was pretty minimal though. I had never done it before and followed along on a how to video.

I only had 1500 and 1000 grit sand paper so didn't get to aggressive.



Good choice.

I would have tested with #2000 or higher.






If you zoom in on the paint pics the little dots you see almost look like water spots or some type of small circular blemishes. They are only on top surfaces though. Should I try a more aggressive compound, or wool pad, or maybe some more aggressive wetsanding in a small area?

I did look up fisheyeing but the guy I bought the truck from said the paint never had fisheyes in it so I thought I had ruled that out.




You can try a couple of things,

A more aggressive compound and pad
Machine sanding with 3M Trizact #3000 sanding discs

If it were me, I would try machine sanding a test spot and then compound to check results.

If you can talk to the painter - let him know what you want to do and simply ask him?

Is there a lot of clear on the truck?


A good painter, an honest painter will tell you straight-up. Once he knows you're going to sand - that will be his clue to let you know.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

If you've never machine sanded but have confidence that there's plenty of paint - it's safer than hand sanding because the sanding marks will be more uniform in depth and overall.

You'll need something like a Porter Cable polisher with a 5" or 6" backing plate. An interface pad and the disc.

Here's an old 2-door Chevy I machine sanded (custom paint), to remove surface texture.

Review: Wolfgang Si02 Paint Sealant (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews-by-mike-phillips/125864-review-wolfgang-si02-paint-sealant.html)


My test vehicle

I normally try to use a German manufactured car when using product from Wolfgang as it fits the German theme better, but the reality is, this product is formulated to bond to car paint, specifically URETHANE car paint. So the product doesn't care if you use it on a Chevy, a Mercedes-Benz or even a Yugo - as long as the paint is smooth and clean.


1967 Camaro Convertible

Now to the untrained eye, this Camaro probably looks pretty good?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_001.JPG


To the trained eyes, it needs a lot of damage repair.


Mottling
Paint mottling is the term used to describe what looks like a grainy surface texture after respraying. It's DIFFERENT than Orange Peel. Orange Peel, as the name suggests, looks like the surface texture of an orange peel, with high spots, (mountains), and low spots, (valleys). What was interesting to me was the fenders did not have the mottling texture, in fact they had a nice flat surface with excellent D.O.I. or Distinction of Image.


Here's the section of the hood I'm going to get a close-up shot of - I'm framing-up this shot so you can see where I'm looking. I couldn't capture the mottling appearance from this far away.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_002.JPG




Now that I've moved my camera in closer and used my finger to give the camera something to focus on - NOW you can see the mottling. Buffing won't fix mottling just like buffing won't fix orange peel. So I'm going to machine damp sand the hood.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_003.JPG



Deep RIDS
Besides the mottling, there were a few areas with RIDS or Random Isolated Deeper Scratches. for these I'll frame-up the shot and the take a close-up to showcase these defects.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_004.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_005.JPG



There's some wacky deeper scratches on the driver's side of the hood next to the edge.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_006.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_007.JPG




There are actually some arc scratches in this area that only appear with a swirl finder light....

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_008.JPG




See them? Going against the grain of the straight-line scratches? The owner has know idea where these came from.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_009.JPG




Machine Damp Sanding

When it comes to machine sanding someone else's toy? My rule of thumb is I do my research first, then measure the paint thickness and then proceed. Because I didn't think this was a super high quality paint job, I chose to play it safe and used 3M Trizact #5000 in 5" and 3" sanding discs.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_010.JPG


Here's the hood machine damp sanded....

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_011.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_012.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_013.JPG


This is a 3M Trizact 5" #5000 grit sanding disc.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_014.JPG


It perfectly fits onto my G9 with a 5" Griot's backing plate.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_015.JPG


Here you can see a foam interface pad in-between the backing plate and the sanding disc. The foam interface makes for a smoother sanding process as it allows the face of the sanding disc to conform to the curve of a panel. It also decreases the aggressiveness of the sanding a little making it much safer when working on someone else's toy. :)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_016.JPG



Here's the Trizact 3" #5000 grit sanding disc...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_017.JPG


I prefer the compact size of the now discontinued Griot's 3" Mini Polisher for machine sanding but you can use the new replacement, the Griot's G8

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_018.JPG


And here you can see the foam interface between the backing plate and the sanding disc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_019.JPG


Here's the machine damp sanded hood after wiping off the sanding slurry.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_020.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_021.JPG



Even though the sanding marks are still in the paint, you can now see the increase in distinction of image in the reflection of the overhead tube lights. This means my goal is accomplished.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_022.JPG



Removing the sanding marks

Next up I need to remove the #5000 grit sanding marks. When you machine damp sand with such a high grit just about any orbital polisher will work, heck you can even remove the sanding marks by hand if you have the skill level.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_023.JPG



Synergistic Chemical Compatibility

Years ago while still working at Meguiar's and running their forum, I coined the term, Synergistic Chemical Compatibility, it's always great to see others use terms I've coined for the detailing industry.

Here's what this term means,


The chemists that formulate the first step products, since they know what's in them, they are better able to formulate the follow-up or next step products. For this reason, there's a synergistic chemical compatibility among the products and/or product line. Using one product designed to be used after the results of the previous product is a system approach.

Article: Synergistic Chemical Compatibility by Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/125615-synergistic-chemical-compatibility-mike-phillips.html)



In keeping with this idea, I'll use the Wolfgang Uber Compound to remove the sanding marks and then buff out the rest of the car. After this I'll follow with the Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover.

For the compounded step I'll use the Lake Country 6.5" Force Hybrid Orange Foam Cutting pads and for the polishing step I'll use the Lake Country 6.5" Force Hybrid White Foam Polishing pads.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_024.JPG




8 Section Passes

I did 8 thorough section passes and then wiped off the residue and took these pictures.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_025.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_026.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_027.JPG


The Definition of a Section Pass by Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/109747-definition-section-pass-mike-phillips.html)




It's not until I get my camera closer where it can focus on the actual surface can you see the true results. See the clear or defined lines of the overhead florescent tube light bulbs? This is what I was aiming for, removing the mottling by flattening out the paint by sanding. Then removing my sanding marks to restore gloss and clarity and BOOM - SUCCESS!

Now the paint on the hood will match the paint on the fenders and in more simple terms, the Camaro will look like it's supposed to look, like a freaking show car! I teach every skill you see in this write-up in all my car detailing classes. Attend one and flatten out your learning curve and have fun too.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_028.JPG



And for perspective, here's how the paint looked before - you cannot see the lines of the overhead florescent tube bulbs.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_003.JPG



This is where the other deeper scratches were along the side of the driver's side hood...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_029.JPG



:)

[Turq65]

Thanks for all the great infor Mike. It's definitely a single stage as I did get some blue on my pads as I used my DA.

[Mike Phillips]

Here's Trizact options...

You could use a 3" sanding disc BUT you need a tool that can oscillate a 3" sanding disc. I told people for YEARS to buy the Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher NOT for a polisher but because it's such a damn good sander for thin panels or for Newbies that don't care about SPEED - they just want to be careful. Now they are discontinued. You could probably find one on eBay or something similar.



I prefer the compact size of the now discontinued Griot's 3" Mini Polisher for machine sanding but you can use the new replacement, the Griot's G8

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_018.JPG


And here you can see the foam interface between the backing plate and the sanding disc.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3984/aWolfgang_Si02_PS_019.JPG



Trizact

3M Trizact Hookit 6 Inch Foam Discs P3000, 3M 02085 foam discs, paint finishing discs (https://www.autogeek.net/3m-6in-hookit-foam-discs.html)

3M Trizact Hookit 3 Inch Foam Discs P3000, 3m spot repair discs, abrasive discs (https://www.autogeek.net/3m-trizact-hookit-discs-p3000.html)



Nikken

If you want to hand sand - I 100% recommend the Nikken brand of "finishing" papers. Not SANDING but FINISHING. These are an electronics grade paper.

Meguiars 2000 Grit Sand Pape, Unigrit 2000 sandpaper (https://www.autogeek.net/2000-grit-sandpaper.html)

Meguiars Sanding Pad, wet-sanding pad, Meguiars sandpaper pad (https://www.autogeek.net/meguiars-sanding-pad.html)



:)

[Mike Phillips]

And for what it's worth - I'll be teaching hand and machine sanding next month

Training Cars for the February Detailing Class (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/3-day-car-detailing-bootcamp-classes-info-and-dates/128369-training-cars-february-detailing-class.html)


:)

[2black1s]

I also cannot tell by the pictures what the defects are. They may be blemishes from some contamination in the paint in which case there is nothing that can be done.

Besides all of the great advice Mike has provided, I would inspect the blemishes with a 10x (or greater) magnifier. That may allow you to determine if the blemishes are "on" the paint as opposed to "in" the paint.

Since you have already polished the areas and the blemishes remain, my question would be this... Did the blemishes diminish with the polishing or are they still pretty much the same?

If they did improve then you could continue with more polishing, or even wet-sanding, slowly and carefully, to determine if they are continuing to improve with such actions. Any improvement is an indication that the blemishes are "on" the paint. As long as they are improving with the additional processing you can continue with such up to the point that you feel the risk of thinning or cut-through is becoming too great. Unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to know when thinning or cut-through may occur. Experience is really your best friend for making this assessment.

OTOH, if the polishing that you've already done has not resulted in any improvement of the blemishes, that is an indication that the blemishes are "in" the paint, and then the prognosis for further polishing is not good. Again, experience is key in making the decision of whether or not to continue chasing the blemishes. Knowing when to stop chasing defects is just as important, maybe even moreso, as any other detailing skill, and it is learned primarily through experience.


Die Back

One last point... The surface texture of the paint in Mike's Camaro example where it is described as "mottling", appears to me to be a textbook example of holdout, die back, shrinkage, or the term Mike likes - "shifting", that occurs during the paint's curing process.

Each of these terms are descriptions of the same thing... A perfectly normal phenomenon on all paints, although it can be especially pronounced as the paint thickness increases, i.e., more coats = more pronounced.

Mottling is a term I usually reserve to describe an uneven, non-uniform metallic dispersion/orientation within the paint film of a metallic color.

And one more last point... Those "wacky" scratches. Those appear to be sandscratch swelling within the paint. Were you able to get them out? If my inclination is correct, they are in there forever as the metallic orientation is disrupted and telegraphs the scratch pattern to the finish.

And finally, the last one more last point LOL...

Although wet-sanding is proposed as a possible remedy here, it is really a last resort and something that I caution about unless you plan on wet-sanding the entire panel or vehicle. The problem with wet-sanding isolated blemishes is that you end up with a smooth spot in the sea of surrounding paint texture. This doesn't seem to bother some folks but to me this "smooth spot" will bother me as much, or even more in some cases, than the original blemish. Wet-sanding isolated defects in a typical paint finish (that has some texture) is something I shy away from for the reason stated.