What can I put on top of blackfire pro ceramic coating.

[Freedom01]

Hi Mike, question, I just applied the blackfire pro ceramic coating to my new 2020 BMW X 4 M40i white in color my question is can I use pinnacle crystal mist detailer over it after washing the vehicle later on? Also can I use pinnacle signature ll carnuaba wax on top of the ceramic coating it does state there are no cleaners in it but the label says something about it having mineral spirits in it. I also have pinnacle sio2 spray which I was told that I can use over the coating. Can I use any of the items mentioned.
Thanks

[Bruno Soares]

Don’t use the wax over the coating. The other two products would be fine. Use the SiO2 spray every few months and the Detailer could be used more often.

[Freedom01]

So it’s safe to say the crystal mist detailer does not contain any cleaners, I was told not to use anything that contained cleaners.
Thanks for the info

[Markymapo]

Same here, use the SiO2 spray every few months or like I do, every 6 weeks.

[Bruno Soares]

So it’s safe to say the crystal mist detailer does not contain any cleaners, I was told not to use anything that contained cleaners.
Thanks for the info

The problem is when it contains abrasives for the cleaning like and AIO would. That would damage the coating. If it was just a chemical cleaner then it’s fine, the coating is very resistant to chemicals, not so much against abrasives. A quick detailer is fine as it helps add lubricity when you dry the vehicle.

Don’t start adding too much hoping to extend the life of the coating, you risk masking the coatings properties and seeing just those of the inferior topper. I prefer to have a shorter but better life for the coating.

[Mike Phillips]

Just wrote an article about this - this week...


Can I apply a wax over the top of a ceramic coating? (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/127005-can-i-apply-wax-over-top-ceramic-coating.html)


I get this question a lot. I see this question posted elsewhere a lot.

Here's the question and the answer.


Can I apply a wax over the top of a ceramic coating?

Yes.


There's no "law" against it but when you put ANY wax or sealant over an Si02 product you then get the benefits and features of the wax or sealant versus the Si02 product and that defeats the purpose of using the Si02 product because generally speaking, ceramic coatings offer MORE benefits.


Here's what I do - after installing a ceramic coating to one of my cars - after that I either do a waterless wash or I wash with the Wolfgang Uber Si02 Coating Wash. For a waterless wash I tend to use SONAX Glass Cleaner.


I don't apply a wax over the coating. I don't apply a sealant over the coating.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

So it’s safe to say the crystal mist detailer does not contain any cleaners, I was told not to use anything that contained cleaners.

Thanks for the info




The word cleaners is kind of broad, water is a cleaner.

I think what they mean by cleaners is abrasives, for example don't use a "polish".

The best thing you can do for a coated car, or ANY thing on a car is learn to wash and dry it CAREFULLY.

Then - DO find a maintenance product of some type that is compatible with your coating. This can be any of these,


Spray detailer
Spray wax
Spray sealant
Spray Booster




I will be happy to be the first to admit - it is confusing.

Here's the deal, even though washing keeps the coating CLEAN so it can do it's job, there is something to be said for revitalizing and thus maximizing the gloss, clarity, slickness and shine by doing something or applying something to the finish after first washing or wiping the paint clean.

The good news is there are a LOT of great products to choose from.


:)

[WillSports3]

The best rule of thumb to look at is if it wasn't made for a coating, don't use it on a coating. The reason I say that is because some of the products like pure waxes or sealants will ruin the coating's best features and mask it, so for all the time you spent doing up a coating, you basically just masked it by putting on the wax/sealant.

I would say the only exception would be if the wax was made for a coating. My favourite example is Pinnacle Black Label Synergy. Reacts well on a coating but it's fairly obvious that it will only last a month or so and Synergy is a pretty durable wax. So if you really want to put something that'll last longer than the SiO2 sprays and it has an amazing glow, that's what I would suggest.

[Desertnate]

For a waterless wash I tend to use SONAX Glass Cleaner.

:)

I've seen you mention this before and somewhere I've watched a video where you used that product as a clay lube for either for a clay substitute pad either by hand or on a DA. It really offers that much lubrication? I would never expect that from a glass cleaner.

[Mike Phillips]

For a waterless wash I tend to use SONAX Glass Cleaner.








I've seen you mention this before and somewhere I've watched a video where you used that product as a clay lube for either for a clay substitute pad either by hand or on a DA.

It really offers that much lubrication? I would never expect that from a glass cleaner.




Yes.

First - SONAX themselves recommend it for a clay pad lubricant. I just took that recommendation to the limit and I use that sh*t on everything. :)


I love it for a waterless when I'm doing a PREP wash. This means I'm PREPPING the car to buff it out. The glass cleaner cuts through normal dirt plus road film.

I do use it for a maintenance wash on my own cars because they never get that dirty AND I'm going to apply the PBL Surface Coating next.

Always a rhyme to the reason...


Here's an article on this topic,

SONAX Glass Cleaner as a Prep Wash (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/126153-sonax-glass-cleaner-prep-wash.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4013/Glass_Cleaner_Prep_Wash_01.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/4013/Glass_Cleaner_Prep_Wash_02.JPG

:)

[Loach]

I've got the Blackfire Pro Ceramic Coating on the rear bumper of the test car at over 1.5 years of total durability, and I've used a bunch of various sprays on top of it. It's just turned into this perpetual hydrophobic monster over time and it doesn't seem like it's been very picky at all with the toppers. I've used Bead Maker, the Blackfire SiO2 Spray Sealant, Hybrid Ceramic Detailer, Luster Lube, Ultimate Quik Wax, Ultimate Quik Detailer, Brilliant Shine Detailer off the top of my head. It's just been a really solid performing coating that is able to boost whatever I've used on top of it.

I agree with the others, don't go with a heavier wax that you're applying by hand on top of the coating without expecting this to really reduce the hydrophobic behavior, stick with the spray toppers instead.

[Mike Phillips]

The word cleaners is kind of broad, water is a cleaner.

I think what they mean by cleaners is abrasives, for example don't use a "polish".

The best thing you can do for a coated car, or ANY thing on a car is learn to wash and dry it CAREFULLY.

Then - DO find a maintenance product of some type that is compatible with your coating. This can be any of these,


Spray detailer
Spray wax
Spray sealant
Spray Booster




I will be happy to be the first to admit - it is confusing.

Here's the deal, even though washing keeps the coating CLEAN so it can do it's job, there is something to be said for revitalizing and thus maximizing the gloss, clarity, slickness and shine by doing something or applying something to the finish after first washing or wiping the paint clean.

The good news is there are a LOT of great products to choose from.


:)








I agree with the others, don't go with a heavier wax that you're applying by hand on top of the coating without expecting this to really reduce the hydrophobic behavior, stick with the spray toppers instead.





Vindicated by Loach.

Thanks for chiming in buddy.


:cheers:

[acuRAS82]

I would say the only exception would be if the wax was made for a coating. My favourite example is Pinnacle Black Label Synergy. Reacts well on a coating but it's fairly obvious that it will only last a month or so and Synergy is a pretty durable wax. So if you really want to put something that'll last longer than the SiO2 sprays and it has an amazing glow, that's what I would suggest.
Are you saying that despite Synergy being durable on its own, it’s only going to last a month as a coating topper? Can you tell because beading/gloss/slickness clearly goes back to exactly like the original coating?

I ask this because I’m still learning what happens when I top CanCoat, which is about the closest I ever use to an actual coating. If I too with High Gloss, it looks sharper but beads pretty much exactly the same as Cancoat. Maybe slightly different, but waaaay different than High Gloss alone. This makes me think that the coating is built up and even though something is on top, top layer does not mask, but it instead is boosted by the bottom layer and for a time the High Gloss basically becomes part of the coating.

But then it gets tricky when I started applying true spray waxes like Gold Class Quik Wax, Fast Wax, OCW. These did not really mask the coating much. Beading was still very, very good, way better than these products have ever beaded. This makes me think that
1) Even typical spray waxes are boosted by the smoothness of the underneath coating, they are not masking the coating nearly as much as expected, or
2) The typical spray waxes are not bonding well or at all and I’m seeing Cancoat quality beading because it is Cancoat with only a few oils leftover from a spray wax that has already vanished.

Was just curious about thoughts on this topping of coatings and watching the topper behavior be as good as the coating itself... boost from coating or did it barely bond at all?

[WillSports3]

Hey Acura,

The way it beads is simply this, the contact angle of High Gloss must be the same as Cancoat or close enough. That's how you get differential beads or similar beads. For example CQuartz UK has a 110 watercontact angle so anything that has 110 water contact angle will look similar to it beading wise.

The top layer is not boosted by the bottom layer. Rather, the effects of High Gloss on clear coat and the bonding process it takes between the two is different from High Gloss on top of a SiO2 coating.

The reason when you use the typical spray waxes is because wax is an oil. Oil on top of a coating will last and do certain things but it will not do the same on top of clear coat. So yes, in a way the spray waxes did not properly bond to the coating basically. Coating is also not PURE silica or whatever the magic sauce is, it's also made up of different polymers like PDMS for example.

Synergy is durable on its own but it might last a month as a coating topper not because of the beading but because rather of the dust settling. The dusting patterns on top of Synergy is a bit more than on top of CQuartz UK as an example, both sitting in my garage. That's how I tell what is what, based on two products that I'm familiar with basically.

[acuRAS82]

Hey Acura,

The way it beads is simply this, the contact angle of High Gloss must be the same as Cancoat or close enough. That's how you get differential beads or similar beads. For example CQuartz UK has a 110 watercontact angle so anything that has 110 water contact angle will look similar to it beading wise.

The top layer is not boosted by the bottom layer. Rather, the effects of High Gloss on clear coat and the bonding process it takes between the two is different from High Gloss on top of a SiO2 coating.
First, thank you for the thoughtful response and information.

So why is that PA High Gloss doesn’t bead as good on its own as it does on Cancoat? You’re saying that the effects of High Gloss on clear coat (and the bond relationship between the two) is not the same as the bond between High Gloss and/on Cancoat.
I should note that High Gloss also beads spectacular on top of Cosmic Spritz. But I’ve never gotten this same insane beading from High Gloss by itself. My original thought was maybe I didn’t apply enough coats of High Gloss to let it build up, but sounds like you believe that the relationship between Cosmic and High Gloss being on top allows High Gloss to reach its full potential contact angle?
Sorry if I sound dumb, it’s because I am. But I’m fascinated by this topic but I don’t have a good visual in my head.


The reason when you use the typical spray waxes is because wax is an oil. Oil on top of a coating will last and do certain things but it will not do the same on top of clear coat. So yes, in a way the spray waxes did not properly bond to the coating basically. Coating is also not PURE silica or whatever the magic sauce is, it's also made up of different polymers like PDMS for example.
Sounds like you are saying similar as above... the oils lay differently on Cancoat than they do on clear coat. And they way they lay on Cancoat results in much better beading (almost Cancoat quality, but the finish looks and feels like the wax is present for some days/weeks, at minimum).


Synergy is durable on its own but it might last a month as a coating topper not because of the beading but because rather of the dust settling. The dusting patterns on top of Synergy is a bit more than on top of CQuartz UK as an example, both sitting in my garage. That's how I tell what is what, based on two products that I'm familiar with basically.
Understood how you can tell based on dust settlement. I’m still surprised something as durable as Synergy would only last the month on the bond with coating. But I’ve come to learn that PBL coatings and therefore Synergy likely use siloxane as the main coating ingredient, and I now find myself wondering if siloxane coating products (IGL, KK Overcoat, PBL) may bond better with each other than with more traditional ceramics that do not use siloxane. Hopefully this winter I’ll be able to see how long Synergy lasts on PBL Coating and report back.

Sorry, I feel like I’m on the cusp of understanding your thoughts, but a little more topper discussion could get me over the hump.