New here question about fixing a job

[foglght]

Sorry I don't have any pictures at the moment. I mostly do paint correction on my own vehicles over the years. I took on a job for a friend. He has a later model BMW with Alpine white paint.

The car had heavy swirl marks and after a bit of research I saw that it likely had pretty hard clear.

I taped off a section on the trunk and started with med. cut compound on an orange pad (flex 3401). Nothing. Moved up to FG400 orange pad. Barely anything. Moved up to M105 with a blue syn. wool. Starting to get somewhere, but still lots of swirls. Finally went full bore with a microfiber and M105. No matter what I did (and I'm done trying as I'm out of products to use/try) I can't get the swirls out. Ended up doing what I could with the wool pads and 105.

Did I need to have something harsher than 105? I would typically get 2 passes of firmer pressure and one light pass before the 105 gave up and dusted. Was using the Flex on speed 5.

I've never had any car act like this. At the end I went back over with reflect on a green pad and from 5 feet it looks pretty good. But as soon as you get close in direct sun, its really easy to see I didn't correct it all. I'm not willing to do any more passes on that clear.

Should I have started with something else? I'm really disappointed right now as pretty much all my own cars look amazing, but this car isn't even close. I am giving the car back to him today, but was considering telling him I'll redo it in the future once I get a paint gauge and see how much is left.

The prep was wash, ironx, clay, wipe. I clean my pads with compressed air after each pass session. Feel like I'm doing most of the right stuff I do every time. Spent 3 days on this car and my shoulders are beat up.

[2wookies]

I haven’t used 105 in years, it used to be the go to. But now when I get a monster like that it’s Car Pros clear cut. That with a MF pad. On a lower speed like 2.5-4 does wonders.

[Banegio]

Noob here; so don't take what I say. Just want to bump this up, since this sounds like an interesting case study.

This reminds me of the story Kevin Brown and Larry Kosilla discussed in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEY-hyXkJKg&list=PLABNq41vjJ6OTImAFYWp_cXsVL-Y1hI76&index=4&t=13m55s). In that case, the paint with unstripped polymer protection didn't respond to any cutting. Kevin suggested the "mow down" method, where using lots of product with MF and lots of pad cleaning with fast arm movement to clean up the protection.

[Mike Phillips]

First....

Because this is your first post to our forum,

Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:






Sorry I don't have any pictures at the moment. I mostly do paint correction on my own vehicles over the years. I took on a job for a friend. He has a later model BMW with Alpine white paint.

The car had heavy swirl marks and after a bit of research I saw that it likely had pretty hard clear.




One of the things I teach the students that take my car detailing classes is when detailing cars for other people, for fun, friends or money, after evaluating the paint, it's important to establish everyone's EXPECTATIONS.


Here's where I'm going with this,


People either buy a car brand new or buy a car used.


If the car has DEEP SWIRLS and SCRATCHES? I ask the car owner, (and teach my class to ask the car owner),

Did you buy the car NEW?

If they say "yes", then I say, whatever it is YOU ARE DOING to you car to put in these deep swirls and scratches - you need to STOP doing this. I only have so much paint to work with when it comes to removing the deep swirls and scratches. The factory clear layer of paint is THINNER than a Post-it Note. So I"m LIMITED in what I can do. I educate the car owner. If they bought it new - the problem is their fault. They have to be educated to KNOW what not to do. Then IF I can fix it - the BIG PICTURE is they stop doing whatever it is they are doing that is inflicting the swirls and scratches into the paint.



When I ask the car owner,

Did you buy the car NEW?


If they say NO, then I say,

Did you get a good deal?


Now follow me,

EVERYONE always says, yes, I got a good deal".


Then I point to the swirls and scratches in the car and say,

That's what you get for a good deal


I still will do my best to undo the damage but it's part of how I interact with customers that I EDUCATE them about the ROOT CAUSE of the problem and where the blame lies. And if they are not to blame, I will still put the focus of the problem - deep swirls and scratches - back to how the car was treated.

And then I share this with them,


Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/87410-clearcoats-thin-mike-phillips.html)

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=68388




I do all of this to help educate the car owner or to educate the people that take my classes on how they need to educate their customers, or friends, so that everyone has real-world expectations on how and if the paint can be fixed and just as important - MOVING FORWARD - how to avoid this type of problem in the future.

It's not my fault, it's not your fault no is it anyone else's fault that the factory paint on modern cars is THIN and this LIMITS what we can do responsibly.

I teach a LOT of stuff in my classes besides how to run a polisher over paint.



Now let me see if I can help you with fixing the paint.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

I taped off a section on the trunk and started with med. cut compound on an orange pad (flex 3401). Nothing.

Moved up to FG400 orange pad. Barely anything.

Moved up to M105 with a blue syn. wool. Starting to get somewhere, but still lots of swirls.

Finally went full bore with a microfiber and M105. No matter what I did (and I'm done trying as I'm out of products to use/try) I can't get the swirls out.

Ended up doing what I could with the wool pads and 105.




Before going any further, and this is just to make sure we're on the same page.

The FLEX 3401 is a BEAST. You're using great pads and products. So assuming you're technique is text-book accurate - if you're not removing the swirls and scratches this to me would mean

A: The paint is hard.

B: The swirls and scratches are probably deep. It's possible they are shallow but because the paint is HARD - it's difficult to remove them.


Paint is always the unknown variable - Mike Phillips



So let's go over you're technique for using the BEAST.


A: You're applying plenty of product - not Pea Sized Drops?

B: You're working a section of paint about 16" by 16" squarish - at least for your Test Spot? The harder the paint the smaller the section of paint you tackle at one time.

C: After spreading your product out - your bring the speed setting up to the 6 speed setting and press the LOCK BUTTON on the tool handle.

D: You start making slow, overlapping section passes pressing down with around 10 to 15 pounds of pressure on the head of the tool - almost enough to bend sheet metal?

E: You make at least 8 solid section passes?



Look at the above and let me know if you're doing all of these things. This is how I would tackle what I believe to be HARD paint with deep swirls and scratches.




:)

[Mike Phillips]

And.....


Here's an offer, If after reading the above A through E techniques you don't think you're doing it like I would do it - I would be happy to shoot a short video demonstrating the above techniques and post it to my Facebook page. I can't put stuff like this on YouTube.



Let me know, it's now 11:00am, I've been answering questions on the forum for 2 hours and need to move on. Actually have to write a review today for the new Dr. Beasley's Nano Surface Primers.



:)

[Reno]

Hi Mike , thats what i was thinking about and BOOM... i almost have a same situation. I have an M5 2009 BMW black factory colour. I know that the paint is propably hard and i want to create my strategy before move on. This is my first serious job. i have on my hands a Rupes 15mm mark 3 and the 75 mini. BMW has DEEP SWIRLS and SCRATCHES and i also have a carbon hood to work on. Which pads and compound must have on hand? I want to be ready.
and by the way... i have a dilema... which nano tool should i buy? Rupes nano long/short or flex pxe 80? Thanks for your time

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mike , thats what i was thinking about and BOOM... i almost have a same situation. I have an M5 2009 BMW black factory colour. I know that the paint is propably hard and i want to create my strategy before move on.



Don't assume, do a Test Spot. See what I shared in Post #11 here this morning.

https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101-a/126313-need-some-help-waxing-process-2.html#post1674447











This is my first serious job. i have on my hands a Rupes 15mm mark 3 and the 75 mini. BMW has DEEP SWIRLS and SCRATCHES and i also have a carbon hood to work on. Which pads and compound must have on hand?



I always use RUPES pads on RUPES tools - they seem to work the best in my experience. Kind of like the RUPES engineers know what they are doing. :)

As for compounds and polishes. Same thing, I use RUPES compounds and polishes with RUPES pads and tools. They make great abrasive technology.

I'm a real fan of BLUE/BLUE followed by WHITE/WHITE - That's RUPES lingo for using the Zephir Gloss compound wit the blue foam pads and the Diamond White ultra fine cut polish with the RUPES white foam pads.



Zephir Gloss - Coarse Compound - Blue Lid & Blue Foam Pad

Zephir Gloss is engineered to be used with the aggressive blue foam cutting pad to remove deeper below surface paint defects while polishing out to a hologram-free finish. Zephir Gloss is aggressive enough to remove down to P1500 sanding marks.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1739/Rupes_21_029.jpg


Quarz Gloss - Medium Cut Polish - Green Lid & Green Foam Pad
Quarz Gloss is engineered to be used with the medium aggressive green foam polishing pad to remove medium depth below surface paint defects while polishing out to a clear, high gloss finish. Quarz Gloss is aggressive enough to remove down to P2500 sanding marks.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1739/Rupes_21_030.jpg


Keramik Gloss - Fine Cut Polish - Yellow Lid & Yellow Foam Pad
Keramik Gloss is engineered to be used with the soft yellow foam finishing pad to remove fine or shallow below surface paint defects while polishing out to an LSP-ready, flawless show room new finish.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1739/Rupes_21_031.jpg



Diamond - Ultra Fine Cut Polish - White Lid & White Foam Pad
Diamond is engineered to be used with the ultra soft foam finishing pad to remove maximize gloss, clarity, depth and shine. Diamond Ultra Fine Cut Polish is an optional step for anyone looking to create a true show car finish.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/1739/Rupes_21_032.jpg



On Autogeek.net

Rupes LHR21ES Random Orbit Polisher (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-lhr-21es-big-foot-polisher.html)

Rupes Zephir Gloss Coarse Gel Compound 500 ml. (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-zephir-gloss-compound.html)

Rupes Quarz Gloss Medium Gel Compound 500 ml. (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-quarz-gloss-compound.html)

Rupes Keramik Gloss Fine Gel Polish 500 ml. (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-keramik-gloss-polish.html)

Rupes Diamond Ultra Fine Gel Polish 500 ml. (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-diamond-ultra-fine-polish.html)

RUPES Color Matched 7" Foam Buffing Pads (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-7-inch-foam-pads.html)

All RUPES Polishers, Pads and Polishes (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autogeek.net%2Frupes-polishers.html)



A lot of guys don't like the dusting of the Zephir Gloss Coarse Compound but in my mind, I'm going to wipe the panel anyways so it don't bother me. I like how the abrasives cut and finish out.







and by the way... i have a dilema... which nano tool should i buy? Rupes nano long/short

or flex pxe 80?

Thanks for your time




That is a dilemma.

I like the RUPES Long Neck for rotary work.

I like the FLEX PiXiE for orbital work. I use it with the 12mm drive unit.

I guess if I had to pick just one I would go with the PiXiE. I like the cordless feature and it will do both rotary in 1" and random orbital in 12mm. Neither tool works well with their 3mm free spinning random orbit drive and I would easily give the FLEX PiXiE the top pick for being able to maintain pad rotation in 12mm free spin mode.

I'll be showing PiXiE to machine sand tomorrow.

https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/126192-how-wetsand-using-scuff-buff-technique-1937-ford-woody.html#post1674475


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Hi Mike , thats what i was thinking about and BOOM... i almost have a same situation.





Are you going to install a coating?

Or use a wax or sealant?

Also - should have started your own "dedicated thread" instead of tagging onto this thread.



:)

[Reno]

Are you going to install a coating?

Or use a wax or sealant?

Also - should have started your own "dedicated thread" instead of tagging onto this thread.



:)
i will seal it. i use menzerna power lock sealant. with green rupes pad and rupes yellow wool pad with green compound i had great results on a soft paint hyundai accent 2001 with heavy oxidation.

[Bill1234]

Would try Griots fast correction cream, low dust and nice finish, I liked m105 but holy blank it dusts too much and is a pain to wipe off

[foglght]

A: You're applying plenty of product - not Pea Sized Drops?

B: You're working a section of paint about 16" by 16" squarish - at least for your Test Spot? The harder the paint the smaller the section of paint you tackle at one time.

C: After spreading your product out - your bring the speed setting up to the 6 speed setting and press the LOCK BUTTON on the tool handle.

D: You start making slow, overlapping section passes pressing down with around 10 to 15 pounds of pressure on the head of the tool - almost enough to bend sheet metal?

E: You make at least 8 solid section passes?



Look at the above and let me know if you're doing all of these things. This is how I would tackle what I believe to be HARD paint with deep swirls and scratches.




:)

I was fully priming the pad the first time and then applying a couple drops. The wool pads I don't have a ton of experience with since they are not usually needed for most of the jobs I do. On the wool pads I was using a smiley face amount of product.

The test section was half the trunk as the 1 series is a pretty small car.

Spread the product out on setting 2 then ramp up to 5. Setting 6 had 105 dust so quickly I couldn't get 3 passes. I could squeak out 4 on setting 5.

Pressure sounds about right at the end of my stages. I started with an orange pad and some medium cut. Did nothing. Moved all the way up to the microfiber and/or wool with the 105. Ended up making 3 applications of 105 with a new pad each time and 3-4 passes each application. Wish I could have made 8 passes. The 105 would literally evaporate from the car surface by pass 4. Actually was super easy to clean up. Was one of the reasons I lowered the speed. Should I have been getting more passes before it dusted into the ether? I would have kept going, but not having a depth gauge had me stop before I really screwed something up.

Have since ordered a gauge so I can get an idea between the door jamb and the paint.

The one thing I noticed was that after the 3'rd application on the hood, the pitting seemed to become more pronounced. This made me think there was some other product on there that was filling the pits? Had a friend tell me it could possibly be wipe on clear coat and that the swirls I'm seeing were actually under the wipe on clear coat and I'm just now getting to the base issue.