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dnadrifterr
02-29-2020, 12:15 AM
Gelcoat Polish Question - Removed swirls but also deep gloss? - Pics (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/boat-and-marine-craft-detailing/125690-gelcoat-polish-question-removed-swirls-but-also-deep-gloss-pics.html)



Hi All, I posted this on a mastercraft forum but figured I might get some more direct detailing advice here.


I was set to polish the boat and went about doing some some small test areas. For the most part the gel coat is in good condition... swirls, mild oxidation, mild water spotting.


Tried 3M Restorer and Wax and 3M Perfect it Medium with a Orange Pad with a Porter Cable DA. Painters tape down the middle to show original condition.
Both got the swirls out quickly. Restorer was more abrasive....neither finished down to what I thought I was going to get, even moving to a blue pad.


Tried 3M Finesse It with a blue pad after and although the gelcoat is nice and clean, it still doesn't appear to be "glossy", compared to the covered up section that still had the swirls in it. See pics. I also tried a microfiber pad in there as well somewhere without much of a difference.


Next tried Meguiars Marine Premium Cleaner Wax with a blue pad. Not much of a change if any. Not opposed to using different products like Marine 31....in fact I have a lot of those products, but my polish had separated and I want to try out some new stuff.

If you look at what was the covered area with swirls, it just appears like it has a higher gloss to me. Mostly, I am trying to understand what is happening as this removal of an apparent nice glossy layer has not been my experience when working on my autos. Are my eyes playing tricks on me due to the presence or absence of swirls.

Thoughts? Advice?


68869688706887168872

dnadrifterr
02-29-2020, 12:55 AM
Hmmm....just read the thread about dulling the finish using foam pads.....

I've got some LC yellows to try, but looks like I may be buying some Rupes Course Blue pads based on the advice there. Crazy that softer pads seem to dull the surface.

Which is the product id for those blue rupes pads? Using a PC DA. Want to make sure I am getting the right thing. These look super rough and scary.

Item ID: RU-BR150H, 5.25 Inch RUPES 135mm Coarse Blue Rotary Foam Pad (https://www.autogeek.net/ru-br150h.html)

OR

Item ID: RU-150H-B, Rupes 150 mm (6 inch) Foam Pads (https://www.autogeek.net/rupes-6-inch-foam-pads.html)

Markymapo
02-29-2020, 08:26 AM
I just purchased the : RU-150H-B to use with an orbital polisher. Will see how they work in May when the boat comes out of storage. Mid P has a really good book on boat detailing (Marine 31). I am totally new to boat detailing, last spring was a real challenge. I did get a decent shine but it took work (boat pretty oxidized, wet sanded 1000, 2000,4000, then wool, then polish, using a mix of rotary n orbital). The exact sequence is in my book at the lake house with details on what I used.

dnadrifterr
02-29-2020, 10:11 AM
I just purchased the : RU-150H-B to use with an orbital polisher.

Yeah. I think the other one is the rotary version. The RU-150H-B sure looks coarse though....hard to imagine it producing a glossy finish, but based on what Mike said it must.

Totts
02-29-2020, 10:22 PM
Yes, exactly the frosted appearance I experienced but to the point that there was no shine at all, just completely dull. I think the only thing that will bring it back is wet sanding. Since then, the softest pad I can use is the yellow Lake Country cutting pad and even then I sense it could be a little too soft so I've ordered two of the Rupes pads that Mike Phillips recommended. They haven't arrived yet, I'll be trying them out next week but have high hopes following on from this experience.

I've got a Makita Orbital with a 5" plate and I've ordered the 6" Rupes, hopefully they won't be too big.

dnadrifterr
03-01-2020, 04:33 PM
Yeah, the guys on the mastercraft forum are saying I need to wet sand. Would really like to avoid that as the gelcoat is actually in pretty good condition....not chalky at all.

Going to get the blue pads and see what happens. Any opinions from folks if the 3M restorer is abrasive enough?

Totts
03-01-2020, 05:18 PM
What part are they recommending you to wet sand, all of it or just the part that has dulled due to use with a soft pad?

If it's not too oxidised and chalky then I'd be inclined to experiment on test area's. The idea is to start off light cutting then work progressively heavier until you reach the point you're happy with. If you do end up cutting then you can get cutting pads for the Orbital. I've never tried them personally but I'll try at the next opportunity. I'd use with a flexible backing pad so the cutting pad can mould with the contours.

dnadrifterr
03-01-2020, 09:13 PM
basically they are saying I didn't get a glossy finish because I didn't wet sand or cut hard enough because the boat is in worse shape than I think. So they think I should I should do the entire boat or what I want to look better. While it may be helpful to cut harder, the boat is in pretty good condition. Good enough condition that most people wouldn't even think it needs work.

My plan is to take the blue pads I am buying and use a number of polishes I have on hand and also an additional one I am buying (Marine 31 heavy cut/oxidation) and see what kind of results I get. I think I would move to wool next.

Current marine polishes:
3M Restorer and Wax
3M Perfect It - Medium
3M Finesse It
Marine 31 - Heavy cut and cleaner wax
Marine 31- Color restorer (sample bottle)

Coming: Marine 31 Heavy cut / oxidation

Totts
03-01-2020, 09:31 PM
I would've thought you have the right approach if that boat isn't that bad. There's so much advice knocking around in this business that you've definitely got to be selective about what you take on. It's quite amazing what can be achieved with a wool pad and some compound especially when they have diminishing abrasive. Now I'm not sure if they all work that way but 3M profess theirs do so basically you've cut the gelcoat and as you continue the abrasive diminishes to become finer and finer so effectively becomes a polish. You can actually stop and feel it, the grittiness has gone and becomes pasty.

I'm looking forward to trying the blue Rupes pad out and using it in this manner to see the results. Keep us posted and I'll do likewise. Good luck!

Mike Phillips
03-02-2020, 10:01 AM
Hi All, I posted this on a mastercraft forum but figured I might get some more direct detailing advice here.


I was set to polish the boat and went about doing some some small test areas. For the most part the gel coat is in good condition... swirls, mild oxidation, mild water spotting.


Tried 3M Restorer and Wax and 3M Perfect it Medium with a Orange Pad with a Porter Cable DA. Painters tape down the middle to show original condition.
Both got the swirls out quickly. Restorer was more abrasive....neither finished down to what I thought I was going to get, even moving to a blue pad.



Was this "blue pad" a soft foam waxing pad, like Lake Country sells?






Tried 3M Finesse It with a blue pad after and although the gelcoat is nice and clean, it still doesn't appear to be "glossy", compared to the covered up section that still had the swirls in it. See pics. I also tried a microfiber pad in there as well somewhere without much of a difference.



Being you're using 3M products, if the blue pad the convoluted 3M waffle pad, which is a soft foam finishing pad?

A microfiber pad should have left a hard shine with marring. Always remember

Fibers are abrasives

The individual fibers will leave their own cuts in the surface, thus micro-marring (or holograms when using a rotary buffer). But even with marring or holograms, I would expect a microfiber pad to leave a hard shine. The Porter Cable is a great tool but also one of the weakest DAs on the market.



We're you on the 6 Speed Setting?
Did you mark your backing plate?
Was the pad rotating when buffing?








Next tried Meguiars Marine Premium Cleaner Wax with a blue pad. Not much of a change if any. Not opposed to using different products like Marine 31....in fact I have a lot of those products, but my polish had separated and I want to try out some new stuff.



The Meguair's Marine Cleaner/Wax is actually a very good product.





If you look at what was the covered area with swirls, it just appears like it has a higher gloss to me.



https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/attachments/boat-and-marine-craft-detailing/68870d1582953164-gelcoat-polish-question-removed-swirls-but-also-deep-gloss-pics-_p2a3573_v1-jpg[/quote]

[IMG]https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/attachments/boat-and-marine-craft-detailing/68871d1582953172-gelcoat-polish-question-removed-swirls-but-also-deep-gloss-pics-_p2a3574_v1-2-jpg






Mostly, I am trying to understand what is happening as this removal of an apparent nice glossy layer has not been my experience when working on my autos. Are my eyes playing tricks on me due to the presence or absence of swirls.

Thoughts? Advice?





You found the other thread I was posting to where I explained that soft foam pads don't work well for creating a high gloss finish on gel-coats. This thread,

Polishing gelcoat makes it go dull - what am I doing wrong? (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/boat-and-marine-craft-detailing/125600-polishing-gelcoat-makes-go-dull-what-am-i-doing-wrong.html)


And as I shared there, my experience is soft foam doesn't work for abrading gel-coat to a high gloss. It's good for a non-cleaning wax or sealant to seal the gel-coat AFTER all abrading work is over, but not for any abrading step.

Sometimes I don't like to share all my secrets or experience because what always happens is others take it and share it, (that's good), but they never cite where they got the info from. Not me. I NEVER steal other guys stuff. If I learn something from someone else and then share it, I give due credit where credit is due.

That said, I have MORE PHOTO-DOCUMENTED boat detailing classes than anyone else on Planet Earth. When people pay GOOD MONEY to take any of my classes - I don't disappoint. These people travel from all over the United States of America and from other countries to LEARN how to detail a boat and do it right the first time.

So here's what I show for REALLY bad or DEEP oxidation.



Machine sand with Mirka Abralon.
Cut out sanding marks with rotary buffer, TRADITIONAL WOOL CUTTING PAD - not the short fiber style you can use an an orbital polisher, using the Captain's Compound.
Removing the holograms left by the fibers in the above step using the RUPES coarse blue foam pad on any orbital polisher and the Captain's compound. I use the BEAST for speed and pure grunt power.
Seal the surface - Wax, Sealant or Ceramic Coating.



It works every time. And I prove it with pictures like this,


Boat Detailing Training - Before & After Pictures - The MOST DOCUMENTED HANDS-ON Boat Detailing Classes - Autogeek - Stuart, Florida (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/2-day-boat-detailing-classes-info-and-dates/125279-boat-detailing-training-before-after-pictures-most-documented-hands-boat-detailing-classes-autogeek-stuart-florida.html)




BEFORE

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3617/Rinker_0051.JPG



Here's what she looks like after I light up the side....

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3617/Rinker_009.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3617/Rinker_010.JPG



Here's the results from my Test Spot

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3633/2018_Boat_Class_0036.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3633/2018_Boat_Class_0037.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3633/2018_Boat_Class_0038.JPG






AFTER

And here's the final results....


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3613/2018_Boat_Class_0162.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3613/2018_Boat_Class_0163.JPG

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3613/2018_Boat_Class_0164.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/3613/2018_Boat_Class_0169.JPG


Two boats in horrible condition in this class. My class learned how to detail both inside and outside. See all the pictures here,

Pictures: 2018 Boat Detailing Class at Autogeek with Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fyb4vyw7y)





:)

Mike Phillips
03-02-2020, 10:04 AM
Also....


For everyone's insight and education...


If you're experienced detailing cars, you know just how perfect you can get car paint, both single stage and basecoat/clearcoat paints.

When it comes to GEL-COAT - because it's porous, you cannot get the same perfect looking finish like you can with car paint. You can get close, but not the same.


So I always teach to

LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS



And if you detail boats for money,

Lower your customer's expectations.


Then as I also teach,

Under promise and over deliver.


:)

Totts
03-03-2020, 08:36 AM
It's very much appreciated that you do share your knowledge and experience. I've got a hell of a lot out of it and I've only been on the forum for a short while so thanks :dblthumb2:

Those Mirka Abralon pads look the business. I note that they go in 1000 grit increments. Do you use all three 1000, 2000 then 3000 followed by the wool pad and Captains Compound?

Totts
03-03-2020, 08:57 AM
It is very much appreciated that you do share your knowledge and experience. I've learned a lot already and have only been on the forum a short while so thank you for that :dblthumb2:

Those Mirka Abralon cutting pads look good. I note that that go in increments of 1000 grit size. Do you find that you'll use all three 1000, 2000 and 3000 for a badly oxidised boat?

Mike Phillips
03-03-2020, 09:29 AM
It's very much appreciated that you do share your knowledge and experience. I've got a hell of a lot out of it and I've only been on the forum for a short while so thanks :dblthumb2:



Thank you. Compliment is much appreciated. This forum is simply a part of Autogeek's Customer Care Department only instead of calling us on the phone you join this forum and ask your question. And unlike a phone call, the info I type out and share endures forever, or at least as long as Autogeek pays their server bill. :props:

You can try posting your questions to the Autogeek Detailing 101 Facebook Group too and get help there too.








Those Mirka Abralon pads look the business. I note that they go in 1000 grit increments. Do you use all three 1000, 2000 then 3000 followed by the wool pad and Captains Compound?




No and Yes.

You always use the least aggressive process to get the job done. I explain this in-depth in my article here,


The two reasons WHY you should always do a Test Spot before buffing out any car (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/124202-two-reasons-why-you-should-always-do-test-spot-before-buffing-out-any-car.html)


Simply change the last word in the above title to boat and everything else I wrote applies the same.


My goal when restoring neglected gel-coat on any boat would be to use the least aggressive process as possible. With severely neglected boats, the oxidation goes INTO the gel-coat, it's not just ON the outside surface of the gel-coat. If you don't remove all the oxidation IN the gel-coat the results you create from only compounding will be short lived - in my experience.

For my boat classes, I bring in the WORST boats I can find - thus I can teach sanding. So many boat owners don't have the ability or simply don't take care of their boats so it's natural to see lots of boats with severe oxidation.

To be honest, I don't really like detailing big boats. The ONLY boat I really ever liked to detail was my Sanger and that's because if you look at it, the majority of the boat is the top of the hull and on a boat trailer it's waist high. It's like buffing out a table. It doesn't get any easier than that. :)

http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/516/1970_Sanger_V_-Drive-Drag_Boat_002.jpg


http://www.marine31online.com/gallery/data/516/1970_Sanger_V_-Drive-Drag_Boat_003.jpg



So to your questions...






Do you use all three 1000, 2000 then 3000 followed by the wool pad and Captains Compound?



You use the sanding disc that gets the job done, (removes the oxidation/deep oxidation), then finish out progressively (if you don't start with #4000), and then YES you use a wool pad with the Captain's Compound to remove your sanding marks.

After compounding, machine polish using the same compound AS YOUR POLISH and use a RUPES coarse blue foam pad on an orbital polisher. This will remove the holograms left by the FIBERS in the wool pad and leave a show car finish on your boat.


If it were me, I would use the BEAST or the SUPA BEAST for the polishing step.


:)

dnadrifterr
03-03-2020, 11:32 PM
Was this "blue pad" a soft foam waxing pad, like Lake Country sells?

Being you're using 3M products, if the blue pad the convoluted 3M waffle pad, which is a soft foam finishing pad?

A microfiber pad should have left a hard shine with marring. Always remember

Fibers are abrasives

The individual fibers will leave their own cuts in the surface, thus micro-marring (or holograms when using a rotary buffer). But even with marring or holograms, I would expect a microfiber pad to leave a hard shine. The Porter Cable is a great tool but also one of the weakest DAs on the market.



We're you on the 6 Speed Setting?
Did you mark your backing plate?
Was the pad rotating when buffing?




Thanks for all the information Mike. Yes I red through some your class examples and the two very badly oxidized blue boats was amazing. The pictures you showed of the maroon one and the gloss achieved were amazing. :xyxthumbs:

Yes, I was using the LC soft blue pads. I didnt try the microfiber very long and didn't try it on a panel that I hadn't already used the blue foam on. I have only touched a very small part of the boat. The majority of the boat is actually a deep red in good shape with little oxidation, so with this new info I am hoping I can use the blue coarse pads and have a stunning result.

Thanks again for all the info....now if only I could get my hands on one your boat detailing books. :-)

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