Ceramic Coatings and the Misinformation of the Masses

[Coach Steve]

Is it possible to polish a ceramic coated vehicle to remove road film and light swirls without compromising the coating?

How much does the coating degrade on its own over time from the elements, driving, etc.?

This industry has overhyped and overstated the abilities of a ceramic coating to the point that it leaves some pro detailers having to educate their customers on what is true and what is fiction.
There probably are coatings that will last as long as they claim but what is the finish going to look like 2, 3, 5 or 8 yrs down the line.

Many customers I've had conversations with about coatings are under the impression that ceramic coatings are the be-all, end-all to car care. They are under the impression that it will remain pristine and unscathed, immune to light scratches, scuffs, etc. They also believe they no longer have to worry about bird bombs, tree sap, etc. And, they in this mindset due to the misinformation they've gotten from advertising and detailers who have made these very statements.

I had a conversation with a potential customer yesterday who was calling around getting estimates for a ceramic coating who was shellshocked at the prices he was hearing. $1100 for prep and $400 for the coating was the average price. I then explained that the paint correction he was paying for was not a one time thing as well dispelling other myths he had heard.
This is just one person I've had this kind of conversation with who was frustrated by the differing claims and promises being made about what they can honestly expect from a coating. I'm really disappointed by how much wrong info is being circulated by some "pros" in this industry and also by the ridiculous prices many are charging for a product that, if we're being completely honest, requires more maintenance and is more difficult to correct when needed than waxed and sealants.

I realize this post is not going to be very well received but it's time someone called out those who are misrepresenting the abilities of ceramic coatings.

[giuseppe pepperoni]

Misinformation is an understatement IMO. As an example, you can read all about 9H and 10H(?!) coatings available for sale, and it's just not true. 10H is the hardness of a diamond. Do you really think a coating is as hard as a diamond?

There are some really smart guys on this board, and you never hear them talking about hardness. I think that's why.

Several of the manufacturers are selling 2in1, or 3in1 products that claim to polish a coating without removing it. I'd guess a product like that, and a soft pad, would work well without removing much of the coating, but you have to accept any mechanical action on the coating will remove some of it. If those coatings were 9H or 10H, how could they be scratched in the real world?

You'd probably need a scanning electron microscope to determine how much of the coating is abraded away by polishing, and I'm not sure any AutoGeekers have one of those.

Me? I'd explain to the customer how a quality ceramic coating can cut down on maintenance, but it still needs to be maintained - just not as often or as involved.

g

[Loach]

Imagine that, $1100 for prepwork, $400 for the coating, and a single hardwater sprinkler bombing with the car in the driveway just undid everything. Or a single $5 tunnel wash, or a $15 service center wash. What happens when Spotless doesn't come close to removing the hard water etching? What happens when it significantly compromises the hydrophobics of the coating? What do you tell the customer that paid for full correction when a single wash completely swirled the surface through the coating?

It takes a good detailer to fully understand the benefits and limitations of the type of products they're working with, this requires extensive testing. And it takes a good detailer to understand the limitations of the customer's budget, and their ability to maintain the type of service being provided in order to move them towards the best recommended course of action. The customer gets zero utility from a 95% correction service when they're going to take it through a swirl-o-matic in a few weeks.

As a result of my personal testing, coatings are the most durable protectants by a very wide margin compared to most if not all of the waxes and sealants I've tested. They have degraded at a much less significant rate in the elements or while driving. But in terms of utility, what exactly am I missing out on with something like Sonax PNS maintained regularly with BSD, compared to CQUK maintained regularly with Reload? As much as I love coatings, my maintenance schedule removes the extra utility that the coatings provide me.

Coatings are not impenetrable, they have some great strengths but also notable weaknesses. I don't believe it's possible to remove light swirling without significantly compromising the coating. So when something does go wrong and you have to go heavy to attempt to correct it, a reapplication of the coating is needed. But they also don't need full correction to adhere to the surface, the oxidation needs to be removed but the customer shouldn't be required to accept a 95%+ correction rate as a prerequisite to have the coating applied. Unless that's what they're looking for and they have the reasonable ability to maintain that finish, it's not a block against swirling at all.

[BudgetPlan1]

Misinformation is an understatement IMO. As an example, you can read all about 9H and 10H(?!) coatings available for sale, and it's just not true. 10H is the hardness of a diamond. Do you really think a coating is as hard as a diamond?

The ‘h’ hardness can be measured in 2 different ways, leading to confusion and exaggeration.

The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)
MOHS Hardness

1 Talc

1.5 Graphite

Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils

1h
2h
3h Average Automotive Paint
4h Average Automotive Paint
5h
6h
7h
8h
9h
10h

2 Gypsum

2-2.5 Fingernail

3 Calcite

4 Fluorite

5 Apatite

6 Orthoclase feldspar

7 Quartz

8 Topaz

9 Corundum

10 Diamond

So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2h measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5h on Mohs

Fingernail – 2-2.5h (Mohs)
Clearcoat – 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5h)
A 9h coating – 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5h)

While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is ‘more than twice as hard’ as your clearcoat, it’s really not saying much.

Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago.

[FUNX650]

@OP:
Thank You! for broaching this controversial
subject matter in a genteel manner.

To the contrary:
•My approach just might be interpreted
as being “poles apart”. As such; and IMHO:
-The marketing of anything is full of, what I’ll
refer to as: Profiteering. And Lies. And Hype.

[And it’s probably best that I stop right there.]


Bob

[PaulMys]

I posted about this in another thread recently.

Are coatings an improvement over waxes/sealants? Well sure, but not in every way.

Totally agree about the Manufacturer's claims, but exaggerated claims aren't unique to coatings.

What I find most annoying about these claims/perceptions of performance, (regardless of them being true, half-true, or outright BS) is that the users of tried and true wax/sealant products are now almost scoffed at.

[Bill D]

They can scoff all they want, I’m still going to use Souveran and Fuzion.

[FUNX650]

They can scoff all they want,

I’m still going to use Souveran and Fuzion.
^^^Baller...

;)

Bob<—FK; 3M (low rent district)

[Coach Steve]

to
Totally agree about the Manufacturer's claims, but exaggerated claims aren't unique to coatings.

That's true but, coatings are unique to the industry in which I represent and participate as a means to pay my bills and provide my livelihood so it's with these exaggerated statements that I take issue. As a result of these inaccurate statements, I am put in a position of having to properly educate the customer on the actual abilities of the product, empathize with them on the varying and misleading information that they've been given, attempt to not look very pissed off by the outright lies they've been told by fellow "professionals", and finally, do my best to present all of this without turning a buyer into a shopper.
It's become exhausting!

I used to think that it was a negative thing that 90% of my business was daily drivers. Now, I see it as a good thing because I don't even bring it up with those customers because they're not ideal candidates for a coating anyway.

The biggest issue I have against ceramic coatings as a whole is how it has caused many detailers to take the used car salesman approach to selling it. They make statements that aren't true, they promise things the product was never meant to do, and they've used it as a profit center charging obscene prices. These individuals might as well be selling AutoButler. It's the same premise.

Yes, there are exaggerations in every induatry. However, ours is an industry that, by and large, depends on the disposable income of our customers in order to exist. They have an unlimited number of things they could spend that income on and if they feel like they've been taken advantage of or realize that the latest, greatest advancement in car care isn't quite the revolution they've heard and read it was, they're going to choose something else to spend their money on and that hurts all of us who work and have worked hard for many years doing the thing we love doing to earn a decent living.

The questions I posed at the beginning of this thread were rhetorical btw.

[Coatingsarecrack]

Everything in this industry is marketed and overhyped to some extent. Is a carnauba wax worth $100, 200, 1000 dollars. You can order a pound of raw carnauba for $20 dollars. That’s enough to make 20 tins of fusion or souveran. I know their may be quality difference but $300 for wax?

The thing most everything in life is derived from selling something. Doctors lawyers shoot engineers are engineering something to be sold. That’s part of the circle of life and yes a good chunk of it will be overstated.

But that’s the thing. Lots will buy a $200 carnauba or a $500 polisher or a $1000 dollar detail job. I bet a few guys who are known and like on this forum may even charge that much. Can we be mad if someone makes or performs a service that someone is willing to pay for? That’s capitalism. I feel if someone is willing to pay for it, it’s their due diligence to make sure their getting proper value. If not it falls on them.

If your gonna believe in snake oil and someone sells it to them.... they both created that market.

And personally I love me some ceramic snake oil. I wa happy rubbin hydrosilex every 6 months on my swirled car but I decided to dig in this rabbit hole. Have I wasted some money.... absolutely! But I’ve enjoyed the ride.

I see three boats to this hobby, everyone loves a clean and beautiful car. Some just want to find the next greatest and don’t mind spending too much even if slightly or a lot frivolous. Those who thrive on accomplishing that same task for 12 cents. Then their are those who think it will fall somewhere in the middle. As long as you find your happy all three are right.

As for that customer shopping around. That was me last year. Wasn’t willing to spend 1000-1500 for the correcting and coating so did it myself. Still deciding if I saved money or overspent....

[Loach]

That's true but, coatings are unique to the industry in which I represent and participate as a means to pay my bills and provide my livelihood so it's with these exaggerated statements that I take issue. As a result of these inaccurate statements, I am put in a position of having to properly educate the customer on the actual abilities of the product, empathize with them on the varying and misleading information that they've been given, attempt to not look very pissed off by the outright lies they've been told by fellow "professionals", and finally, do my best to present all of this without turning a buyer into a shopper.
It's become exhausting!

I used to think that it was a negative thing that 90% of my business was daily drivers. Now, I see it as a good thing because I don't even bring it up with those customers because they're not ideal candidates for a coating anyway.

The biggest issue I have against ceramic coatings as a whole is how it has caused many detailers to take the used car salesman approach to selling it. They make statements that aren't true, they promise things the product was never meant to do, and they've used it as a profit center charging obscene prices. These individuals might as well be selling AutoButler. It's the same premise.

Yes, there are exaggerations in every induatry. However, ours is an industry that, by and large, depends on the disposable income of our customers in order to exist. They have an unlimited number of things they could spend that income on and if they feel like they've been taken advantage of or realize that the latest, greatest advancement in car care isn't quite the revolution they've heard and read it was, they're going to choose something else to spend their money on and that hurts all of us who work and have worked hard for many years doing the thing we love doing to earn a decent living.

The questions I posed at the beginning of this thread were rhetorical btw.

We won't ever be able to get rid of all of the bad eggs in the industry, but they do give the better detailers like yourself an opportunity to level with the client and build a relationship around trust, with information that's grounded in facts instead of unrealistic hype designed to upsell a service that doesn't align with the customer's best interest. Those are the clients that end up spreading your name to family and friends. There's a handful of coating myth videos on the net, I'd love to do one myself in the future that can be used a reference to show consumers the limitations directly. It's been about 7 years since I last saw an Auto Butler in action!

[Mike Phillips]

Good discussion....

I'm glad I have a history on this forum of not hyping any brand or any product.

When I'm asked about coatings, I usually start with the information in this article.

How long will a ceramic coating last on my car? (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/123663-how-long-will-ceramic-coating-last-my-car.html)




And I'm also the guy that wrote this article to shed my own personal opinion - based on real-world experience.

The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/2018-new-car-detailing-how-to-article-by-mike-phillips/119815-case-against-multi-year-ceramic-paint-coatings-road-grime-surface-staining-daily-drivers-mike-phillips.html)



There's simply too many factors related to the paint itself, some paint is hard, some paint is soft and some paint is in the middle of hard and soft. Coatings are different. Prep work is different. Maintenance is defintilly different.


Me? I believe I'm the guy that talks/types about two topics on tis forum all the time.


Abrasive Technology

&

Touching - as in how are you touching the paint?


The most important factor when it comes to polishing paint is the abrasive technology, not your skill or technique. And after you have polished the paint to your satisfaction, how long the results will last no matter what you put on it, car wax, synthetic sealant, or paint coating, how long it will last and how long it will look good, (that's two things, not one), all comes down to how you TOUCH the paint.

Anyone that has taken one of my car detailing classes knows I cover these topics in detail - no pun intended.



Carry on, good discussion.


:)

[Mike Phillips]

And....

Something else I ALWAYS type on this forum is this,

I type for the future, never the moment.


And in the context of this thread, moving into the future, anyone reading this in the future that would like more information on coatings, I have a pretty good collection of articles on this topic here,

Ceramic Paint Coating How-To Articles by Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/124296-ceramic-paint-coating-how-articles-mike-phillips.html)




And to date, no one has ever replied to any of the articles and said,

Hey Mike, it think your wrong.



:)

[Coach Steve]

As much as the detailing industry and its participants (Translation: us) are uber-hyper-pro ceramic coatings, the auto body and paint sector sees it as a complete waste of time and money and rolls its collective eyes at the entire subject.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I whole-heartedly believe and participate in capitalism. It's like owning something that's worth $1,000,000. It's only worth that much if there's someone willing to pay that price for it, otherwise, it might as well be free. In our business, the cost of services varies wildly due to many factors. Each one of us that are independent business owners/operators, wear many hats, one of which is that of a salesperson. If you happen to be a great at sales and are the type that can proverbially "sell ice to an Eskimo" (wait, is that racist? Should it be Inuit?? I don't know...) and are able to sell a coating package for far more than it's worth, should you?

The entire gist of my original post boils down to ethics. Just because you can, should you? That's exactly why I quit selling cars. I was very successful at it. I eventually learned the reason I was so successful was because I have a trustworthy demeanor which the sales managers were using to their advantage. I was unwittingly presenting inflated monthly payment quotes, stealing their trade-ins, and sending people down the road so upside down they were never going to reach a break even point.

I charge by the hour for machine time. It's fair, transparent, and my customers can feel confident that what they are paying to have their vehicle corrected is applicable to their specific situation and not some blanket, one size fits all profit grabber. Should someone with an Accord pay the same price for correction as someone with a Corvette or an Audi?
The average customer knows nothing about paint hardness. It's never entered their scope of consciousness. That's where ethics come in. I've had customers with those exact scenarios, they have 2 vehicles with vastly different paint hardness and level of correction required. Charging by the hour levels the playing field and helps them understand why 2 cars almost the same exact size can be so different in cost to correct.

I'm getting off on a tangent here and that's not what I intended to do. The take-away from my rants should be this... As professionals in this industry, always be ambassadors of good faith. Be ethical in your business dealings, and represent the industry with honesty and never do anything that will give people a reason to distrust the professionals who do their jobs with integrity and pride. The economy is fantastic right now. There's plenty of money to be made honestly. Don't take advantage of those willing to pay for our services.

/rant

[Coach Steve]

We won't ever be able to get rid of all of the bad eggs in the industry, but they do give the better detailers like yourself an opportunity to level with the client and build a relationship around trust, with information that's grounded in facts instead of unrealistic hype designed to upsell a service that doesn't align with the customer's best interest. Those are the clients that end up spreading your name to family and friends.
Referrals are the best, aren't they?! Everything's been done for you before they drop off their car. Gotta love 'em!


It's been about 7 years since I last saw an Auto Butler in action! I stopped seeing vehicles with the sticker in the windshield a couple of years ago. Now, the big profit center for dealers is subpar coatings that are guaranteed for a year and cost between $800-$1800 - and that's just for the coating! In order to keep the warranty in tact, most dealers require the owner to bring the vehicle back in after 6 mos. to touch-up the coating. What the *^#@ is that nonsense?