Elbow Grease Marathon - Lesson Learned

[Northwoods]

So I'm pretty new to the detailing world. Over the weekend I worked on my Honda Accord to protect it for the upcoming winter that seems to just about be here already in the upper midwest. It hasn't seen a coat of wax in maybe 2 years. I clayed it, applied BF One Step by machine with a polishing pad, buffed it out nice, applied Sonax PNS, buffed it out... turned out GREAT!! Then I had the great idea to apply a coat of Collinite 476 by machine using a wax pad for a second layer of protection since we have 6-7 month winters here. I didn't read the directions first and applied it to the whole car like I did with the BF One Step and it dried. YIKES!!! I don't think I've ever had to use that much elblow grease... it was a ROYAL P.I.T.A$$ to remove with MF towels and took me forever but I eventually got it. The directions clearly state to apply the wax to one panel and then buff it off before it completely dries. NEVER AGAIN!!! I'm still sore. I guess lesson learned. I had to buff so hard at times I must have removed the PNS sealant... or at least put some swirls back in the paint that I just removed. Just wanted to post this so others could learn from my mistake. I did apply some more wax at times by machine over the dried areas that were really stubborn that did help remove some of the dried product and then I immediately buffed the area before the new product dried. Not sure how much harm or working backwards I did to the paint, but like I said, lesson learned. I also don't like the butter can of wax and applying it to a pad with a putty knife nearly as nice as a bottle that can be squeezed. The car looks great and it sheds water like a duck now, but I won't EVER be doing that again!

[PaulMys]

Lol.

I am surprised you still have arms left!

You certainly found out the hard way. You can do the whole car with Collinite 845, but with 476s........ NO way.

A few seasons ago, (and because I just HAVE to see things for myself) I applied some 476 to about a 1/8 of my hood and left it on for an hour.

Yikes! It took me 20 minutes to remove it.

I love 476. I just did my winter coat on Sunday. Here's a tip: Apply it to a 2-3 sq.ft. area, and remove it immediately. (Start the removal where you started the application).

This is PLENTY of time. Never let it "haze". If you do, it will be a pain to remove, and even dust a bit. (Ask me how I know........;) )

[Markymapo]

Ouch. I just put 476 on my son-in-laws car this past weekend and having used it about 2 months ago on my truck I knew to not let it sit. I applied to one section, then the phone rang so I went to the garage to pick it up and starting chatting. Then all of sudden I realized oh no the 476 is going to dry, NO. Hung up ,ran outside n caught it in time. Yea, wipe on n wipe off. I am sure we all have a story with Collinite products( which are great products)

[PaulMys]

I also don't like the butter can of wax and applying it to a pad with a putty knife nearly as nice as a bottle that can be squeezed.

I always hand-apply wax. WAY easier to get into the little nooks, and to be careful around trim. (Hotly-contested opinion here, but I remain steadfast).

That being said, a standard-issue 4" round applicator pad fits nicely into the 476s can, and just a dab to reload the pad is a breeze.

(Maybe the "Pad buttering" that you attempted resulted in way too much product used). This would also result in the horrendous removal you encountered.

[hoyt66]

A couple spritz's of qd will help too

[oneheadlite]

In a situation like this, could you have re-applied the 476 to “re-wet” it, then buff it off? Remove like with like?

[JustJesus]

Oh wow. That sounds like a lesson learned, indeed.

Worse for me was using Megs M7 on single stage paint. Essentially, hand polishing. Mike Phillips said a person will get "spaghetti arms" from that process....and I came to discover what that felt like.

[SWETM]

How long time did it go between the PNS and 476s applications?

I know that you want to get the most out of the protection you apply before the winter. But actually with 3 sealant kind of products on top of each other can be working backwards. The risk is big that they don't work well together and get you a comprimised performance from them. It's even not so when you do multible layers of the same product that you can do it with that you get each layers longevity from it. Say you put 2 layers of PNS and where you get around 6 months from 1 layer. You don't get 12 months longevity from it with 2 layers. Even the extra layers of a ceramic coating don't get double longevity from each layer. The consumer coatings that you can layer you often get around 6 months extra longevity. But they often has amount of max layers that you can top them with 3-4 layers as max on those kind of coatings. What I try to getting to is you layered products from 3 different products. And sure a extra layer on top of the Blackfire One Step Finish is of benefit to the longevity from that. But it's not much information about the real world use longevity from the combo of Blackfire AIO and PNS. And honestly I would not be surprised if you would have done one side with a polish and applyied PNS to it would get you a longer longevity from it than the side beside it with the Blackfire One Step Finish and PNS combo. It's just a guess though and you could also get about the same longevity from it. But topping it with another long lasting sealant hybrid as 476s is. You are coming up to where you have the 476s bonding to the PNS and PNS bonding to the Blackfire AIO and that's bonding to the paint. Each of these sealants bonding best to the paint. And the longest lasting I think would be the Collinite 476s. But I don't think that you will get that longevity from it on top of another sealant. And how has that comprimised the PNS. That's something that you will notice. Maybe you can still have some of protection left when the 476s wears off. But I would be very surprised if the hydrophobic caractics of PNS is intact when that happens. If you are unlucky you can be seeing a very poor behavior and self cleaning ability from it already after 2-3 months. It's not a try to bashing on you and I understand how you look at it. But it's just that this if you do it and you don't have the option to maintain it's performance and is much of a fire and forget kind of way. You can be experience that you don't get the longevity from this combos of sealants that you could have got from them each on their own. So it's also a heads up of what might can happens. I really hope I'm wrong and you get through the 6-7 months with your protection.

Next year I would recommend you to find a protection product or combo that is known to last over 6 winter months. Many here in Sweden uses the 476s on it's own as their winter protection with great results. I don't know but isn't it's name Collinite Double Coat Wax 476s and has it anything to do with applying it with 2 layers for longest longevity from it? Maybe other 476s476s users can chaim in on this. Also I would look into the coating lite range of products that you useally get well over 6 months from. As Carpro lite and Gyeon CanCoat and if you use their primer polishes you easly getting over the winter months and possible most of the summer too. Or going with the full blown coatings. Carpro CQUK is an awesome coating for the harsher winter environments and if applyied before one winter you usually get it to last over 2 winters with great maintance on it.

And yeah some protection products you just don't want to dry before you wipe it off. WOW I feel for you man and the PITA removal you got!

/ Tony

[Northwoods]

Lol.

I am surprised you still have arms left!

You certainly found out the hard way. You can do the whole car with Collinite 845, but with 476s........ NO way.

A few seasons ago, (and because I just HAVE to see things for myself) I applied some 476 to about a 1/8 of my hood and left it on for an hour.

Yikes! It took me 20 minutes to remove it.

I love 476. I just did my winter coat on Sunday. Here's a tip: Apply it to a 2-3 sq.ft. area, and remove it immediately. (Start the removal where you started the application).

This is PLENTY of time. Never let it "haze". If you do, it will be a pain to remove, and even dust a bit. (Ask me how I know........;) )

Great advice I wish I knew before I applied it to the whole car and allowed it to haze. My arms are still sore! LOL!

[Northwoods]

I always hand-apply wax. WAY easier to get into the little nooks, and to be careful around trim. (Hotly-contested opinion here, but I remain steadfast).

That being said, a standard-issue 4" round applicator pad fits nicely into the 476s can, and just a dab to reload the pad is a breeze.

(Maybe the "Pad buttering" that you attempted resulted in way too much product used). This would also result in the horrendous removal you encountered.

Very well could have... I put it on thick for the upcoming winter. I sure learned my lesson!! Funny and ironic thing is that I got the DA to apply by machine to save my arms and shoulders... guess that backfired on me big time with this case!

[Northwoods]

In a situation like this, could you have re-applied the 476 to “re-wet” it, then buff it off? Remove like with like?

I did do this some and it worked OK... I had to turn the speed setting up to 5 or 6 in some areas to cut cut through some of it. It was thick and bad!

[Northwoods]

Oh wow. That sounds like a lesson learned, indeed.

Worse for me was using Megs M7 on single stage paint. Essentially, hand polishing. Mike Phillips said a person will get "spaghetti arms" from that process....and I came to discover what that felt like.

I now know what "spaghetti arms" feels like... I hope never again! :)

[Northwoods]

How long time did it go between the PNS and 476s applications?

I know that you want to get the most out of the protection you apply before the winter. But actually with 3 sealant kind of products on top of each other can be working backwards. The risk is big that they don't work well together and get you a comprimised performance from them. It's even not so when you do multible layers of the same product that you can do it with that you get each layers longevity from it. Say you put 2 layers of PNS and where you get around 6 months from 1 layer. You don't get 12 months longevity from it with 2 layers. Even the extra layers of a ceramic coating don't get double longevity from each layer. The consumer coatings that you can layer you often get around 6 months extra longevity. But they often has amount of max layers that you can top them with 3-4 layers as max on those kind of coatings. What I try to getting to is you layered products from 3 different products. And sure a extra layer on top of the Blackfire One Step Finish is of benefit to the longevity from that. But it's not much information about the real world use longevity from the combo of Blackfire AIO and PNS. And honestly I would not be surprised if you would have done one side with a polish and applyied PNS to it would get you a longer longevity from it than the side beside it with the Blackfire One Step Finish and PNS combo. It's just a guess though and you could also get about the same longevity from it. But topping it with another long lasting sealant hybrid as 476s is. You are coming up to where you have the 476s bonding to the PNS and PNS bonding to the Blackfire AIO and that's bonding to the paint. Each of these sealants bonding best to the paint. And the longest lasting I think would be the Collinite 476s. But I don't think that you will get that longevity from it on top of another sealant. And how has that comprimised the PNS. That's something that you will notice. Maybe you can still have some of protection left when the 476s wears off. But I would be very surprised if the hydrophobic caractics of PNS is intact when that happens. If you are unlucky you can be seeing a very poor behavior and self cleaning ability from it already after 2-3 months. It's not a try to bashing on you and I understand how you look at it. But it's just that this if you do it and you don't have the option to maintain it's performance and is much of a fire and forget kind of way. You can be experience that you don't get the longevity from this combos of sealants that you could have got from them each on their own. So it's also a heads up of what might can happens. I really hope I'm wrong and you get through the 6-7 months with your protection.

Next year I would recommend you to find a protection product or combo that is known to last over 6 winter months. Many here in Sweden uses the 476s on it's own as their winter protection with great results. I don't know but isn't it's name Collinite Double Coat Wax 476s and has it anything to do with applying it with 2 layers for longest longevity from it? Maybe other 476s476s users can chaim in on this. Also I would look into the coating lite range of products that you useally get well over 6 months from. As Carpro lite and Gyeon CanCoat and if you use their primer polishes you easly getting over the winter months and possible most of the summer too. Or going with the full blown coatings. Carpro CQUK is an awesome coating for the harsher winter environments and if applyied before one winter you usually get it to last over 2 winters with great maintance on it.

And yeah some protection products you just don't want to dry before you wipe it off. WOW I feel for you man and the PITA removal you got!

/ Tony

I went 4 days between PNS and 476 applications. I hear you and you sound much more knowledgeable than I on this stuff... I was just trying to get the best winter protection I could with the products and order I used them. I guess I would like to know if anybody has real world experience with 476 over PNS or the like and what they found as far as results...? I very well could have just done multiple coats of PNS or 2 layers of 476. I guess it was my first go at this and next year I know that if I use 476 again... I will FOR SURE know how to apply it. Our winters are long and very harsh up here with lots of grime and salt on the roads. I have zero experience with coating lite range of products but if they would work better than PNS and/or 476, I'm 100% game for giving them a try. I did look into full blown coatings a little, but stayed away from them since I am more a beginner. Live and learn I guess. Thanks!

[SWETM]

I went 4 days between PNS and 476 applications. I hear you and you sound much more knowledgeable than I on this stuff... I was just trying to get the best winter protection I could with the products and order I used them. I guess I would like to know if anybody has real world experience with 476 over PNS or the like and what they found as far as results...? I very well could have just done multiple coats of PNS or 2 layers of 476. I guess it was my first go at this and next year I know that if I use 476 again... I will FOR SURE know how to apply it. Our winters are long and very harsh up here with lots of grime and salt on the roads. I have zero experience with coating lite range of products but if they would work better than PNS and/or 476, I'm 100% game for giving them a try. I did look into full blown coatings a little, but stayed away from them since I am more a beginner. Live and learn I guess. Thanks!

I absolutely understand the need to get most out of a protection product and when you have a couple at hand. That may be on the edge of survive the whole winter. Then it's just goes easy to apply them over each other. And you are not the first to try it and not the last either. It's just to see how this plays out for you. And don't panic either if it's failing on you and you are not able to be applying any new protection on there. Clearcoats are very durable and if you would have a road salt build up a month or 2 is no problem. There are a lot of people that does nothing to their cars and still have no clearcoat failure on them after many years. It can be a little panic to always have protection on the paint. But it's not so extreme. Then of cause if you neglect with the protection and live in a harsh environment. The clearcoat will have a shorter life in the end but how much shortened is hard to know and testing. I would say that those that have a bad washing media and products and technique and in the end does a heavy correction yearly. Wears down the clearcoat faster than the ones that does nothing to the paint but a gentle wash and no protection other than the little they can get from a wash & wax car soap. And take of bird dropping and tree sap and such that can etch the paint.

With as anything when it comes to get the most out of the protection you apply. Prep is the key to get that. The coating lite range of products I have looked in to and would have non problem to use is the Gyeon CanCoat and Carpro Lite. These on there own will get you easly over the winter and then some. And if you only need to be useing a finishing polish step you have the option to use their primer polishes Gyeon Primer Polish and Carpro Essence. These gets you a base protection that the lite products bonds harder to and get you some extra months of protection. So you are only needed to be useing it yearly. If you apply this a couple of months before the winter. And do a thorough decon wash in the spring when the road salt is off the roads. Top it with a SiO2 topper or even with them selfs as you get a lot of product in these kind of products coating lite range of products. And with a gentle wash technique and a good maintance it's holds up easly to when it's time for the winter prep again. The benefit with these kind of products is that they are chemical resistance in a great way. And if you do the decon wash properly it will hold up and even revive the performance from the winter months when you do this. So I'm looking more at these kind of products. I have a sealant that I'm going to be applying with a up to 12months longevity from it. But I don't expect it to last that long but will be topping it when it comes to the spring and during the summer. And apply something else if I'm not satisfied with this or just want to try something else out. Polish Angel Master Sealant is the sealant and the topper is Polish Angel High Gloss.

The Turtle Wax Hybrid Solution line of products that's being released in a couple of days. Have a very interesting combo for the winter protection. Their TW HS Ceramic Polish and Wax as the primer polish and let it cure for 24h. Then apply the TW HS Ceramic Spray Coating in 2 layers with 24h cure time in between layers. This I think will be more than enough to get through the winter months. Then you have maintance products with a car soap that leaves the same protection technology behind and a QD and a drying aid/wet wax. That at a very reasonable priced products. Will see how it works for others first and if it's such a huge hit that TW ICE Seal N Shine has been.

Hybrid Solutions (https://www.autogeek.net/hybrid-solutions.html)

We learn by our misstakes LOL. And especially when we have to put some heavy work in to correct them LOL. You will be better prepared the next detail. And you have very great products in both PNS and 476s.
/ Tony