FLEX XC3401 problem

[ZoranC]

Ok, if you want it that way...

You state that NO experienced detailer would put pressure on a FLEX, but immediately follow-up stating that someone who came from a PC background WOULD want to put pressure on the FLEX given that the flex does share many characteristics of the PC world.

You contradicted yourself one sentence after the next.

That is of course, unless you are trying to imply that no experienced detailer would have come from a PC only environment?
No contradiction there. I will leave it at that.

[SanAndreas]

Lumadar, from your post #114 one could get the impression that you are supposed to lean on the Flex. Given that Ger42 is “new to using electrical tools on cars”, it is important that he be given correct information. Zoran was trying to clarify your post by conveying that information which you apparently agree with.

If you find that Zoran is “in such a hurry to…..point out my errors” maybe your writing isn’t articulating your thoughts well. I don’t know but it’s something to think about.

[Lumadar]

Lumadar, from your post #114 one could get the impression that you are supposed to lean on the Flex. Given that Ger42 is “new to using electrical tools on cars”, it is important that he be given correct information. Zoran was trying to clarify your post by conveying that information which you apparently agree with.

If you find that Zoran is “in such a hurry to…..point out my errors” maybe your writing isn’t articulating your thoughts well. I don’t know but it’s something to think about.
I appreciate the second opinion, but I have to kindly diagree on his actual intent. The guy has literally stalked me and gone into every thread he can find of mine to try and point out flaws in my posts ever since I mentioned his bias. It's kind of flattering really, but more childish and pathetic than anything.

Unless someone was reading my post in a coma, or with ESL...I can't see how you couldn't figure it out. Also, last time I checked the FLEX *does* require pressure, and it is not operated purely by its own weight.
*FWIW, I re-read my post two more times...looks like plain English to me. I would not read that as if I were saying that you should lean on the FLEX...

Back on topic, however, I got a chance to check the all mysterious "loose bolt" on my FLEX- it was absolutely rock solid tight. Not loose one bit. So it appears that the damage is not due to just a loose bolt, but a larger, more serious design flaw.

[ZoranC]

I appreciate the second opinion, but I have to kindly diagree on his actual intent. The guy has literally stalked me and gone into every thread he can find of mine to try and point out flaws in my posts ever since I mentioned his bias. It's kind of flattering really, but more childish and pathetic than anything.

Unless someone was reading my post in a coma, or with ESL...I can't see how you couldn't figure it out.
Correcting you in one single different thread hardly constitutes "stalking". I would say it constitutes correction of bad post. Anything else is pure figment of wild imagination.


Also, last time I checked the FLEX *does* require pressure, and it is not operated purely by its own weight.

...

Back on topic, however, I got a chance to check the all mysterious "loose bolt" on my FLEX- it was absolutely rock solid tight. Not loose one bit. So it appears that the damage is not due to just a loose bolt, but a larger, more serious design flaw.
But back to subject and trying to work with facts. Can you please explain in logical and technically correct manner your statement that Flex requires pressure to correct? Could you please point to source of your info?

Also, could you do same for your statement about "larger, more serious design flaw"?

Because I am sitting here looking at XC 3401 VRG Opertaing Instructions and on page 17 it clearly says twice that tool is to be used applying low contact pressure. Once again: low contact pressure, clearly spelled out black on white twice in the manual.

So is it manufacturer's fault and "serious design flaw" that people do not RTFM?

[ZoranC]

Further more, page 15, Safety Instructions, clearly says "Before using the polisher, check that the installed tools have been secured according to the manufacturer's instructions".

Yet people do not check is bolt tightened.

Last but not least, page 15 again, clearly states "Do not apply high contact pressure if the Velcro pad is at an angle, otherwise the Velcro pad will bend and be damaged".

They have clearly said not to do it. Yet people are being shocked what happened and are blaming it on manufacturer. Serious design flaw? Yes, of our educational system.

[ZoranC]

And for those that like to continue using the tool even after part of backing plate "broke off" (in their own words) Page 17 (printed in bold by manufacturer): Use undamaged polishing tools only.

[Lumadar]

C

But back to subject and trying to work with facts. Can you please explain in logical and technically correct manner your statement that Flex requires pressure to correct? Could you please point to source of your info?

Also, could you do same for your statement about "larger, more serious design flaw"?

Because I am sitting here looking at XC 3401 VRG Opertaing Instructions and on page 17 it clearly says twice that tool is to be used applying low contact pressure. Once again: low contact pressure, clearly spelled out black on white twice in the manual.

So is it manufacturer's fault and "serious design flaw" that people do not RTFM?
Lmao, you answered it for me! It says TWICE that it requires PRESSURE, DUH? Do you not speak English? Here's some help:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=pressure&ia=luna) - Share This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressure#sharethis) pres·sure http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/P07/P0762200) Audio Help (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) /ˈprɛʃhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[presh-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -sured, -sur·ing. –noun 1.the exertion of force upon a surface by an object, fluid, etc., in contact with it: the pressure of earth against a wall. YET AGAIN you are in such a rush to attack me that you don't even read my post. I plainly explained that the FLEX is NOT intended to operate purely by its own weight- it requires pressure. Are YOU going to tell me that is false? PLEASE point that out and site your source :Picture:
How about a quote FROM YOU on applying pressure?
"You don't have to keep it flat and you can use little pressure." Hmm, exactly like I said. Interesting.

As for evidence towards the more serious problem, here are some quotes BY YOU:
"I don't feel that way either, as I imagine non-dry lubricants will flow down onto bp while they are lubricating and moment that stops mean no lubrication anymore. Dry lubricants might help but at this moment my gut feeling is that this is a workaround, not solution. I plan to pursue solution. In the meantime I will look into dry lubricants." - That there looks like admitting to a known and serious problem, right?
" Have you tried prevention methods described before that happened?" Why is a prevention method needed if there is no problem?
"

And just for SAG I figured I would show your lovely self-contradiction that I referred to in my first post...plain as day, BIASED posting that is undeniable. "Thus I tend to feel there is no issue with Flex whatsoever." Really? And yet you had to modify your own and monitor a 13 page thread about numerous professionals with continual problems. Hermph.
"Please provide links to reports that claim "I have tightened it and it still happened" links to reports of recurring issues as I am curious how I could have missed them when I visit almost all major forums almost daily and I do not recollect seeing anything to that effect. This today is the first one." I did NOT have a loose bolt, btw, and I DO have the problem. Mine couldn't even be tightened AT ALL it was so tight. Fancy that.
"Which now that I wrote this makes me wonder: Could part of problem be" Wait, you admitted there is a problem? Weird.
"Not even close to light pressure. Also, my 25lbs is estimate (I was not using scale as scale would be "giving in") and I feel it is an underestimate, that it easily could be more as I leaned quite a bit onto it and I am not exactly on diet. Also, search for mine and blkyukon's posts on same subject and you will find he also said he could not easily bring them together once properly tightened. And then take a look at his avatar and build of his upper body.

If one can easily bring bp and housing together things are not fitting right. Once they are fitting right and are tightened right it takes so much pressure that panel would be giving in." Interesting. I've never put close to even 25 pounds of pressure, and did not, and do not have a loose bolt and yet I do have the problem.


Well, I think *you* sufficiently pointed out the fact that there is a problem, and I think that about covers it. Thanks

[ZoranC]

Lmao, you answered it for me! It says TWICE that it requires PRESSURE, DUH? Do you not speak English? Here's some help:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=pressure&ia=luna) - Share This (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressure#sharethis) pres·sure http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/P07/P0762200) Audio Help (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) /ˈprɛʃhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[presh-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -sured, -sur·ing. –noun 1.the exertion of force upon a surface by an object, fluid, etc., in contact with it: the pressure of earth against a wall. YET AGAIN you are in such a rush to attack me that you don't even read my post. I plainly explained that the FLEX is NOT intended to operate purely by its own weight- it requires pressure. Are YOU going to tell me that is false? PLEASE point that out and site your source :Picture:
How about a quote FROM YOU on applying pressure?
"You don't have to keep it flat and you can use little pressure." Hmm, exactly like I said. Interesting.

As for evidence towards the more serious problem, here are some quotes BY YOU:
"I don't feel that way either, as I imagine non-dry lubricants will flow down onto bp while they are lubricating and moment that stops mean no lubrication anymore. Dry lubricants might help but at this moment my gut feeling is that this is a workaround, not solution. I plan to pursue solution. In the meantime I will look into dry lubricants." - That there looks like admitting to a known and serious problem, right?
" Have you tried prevention methods described before that happened?" Why is a prevention method needed if there is no problem?
"

And just for SAG I figured I would show your lovely self-contradiction that I referred to in my first post...plain as day, BIASED posting that is undeniable. "Thus I tend to feel there is no issue with Flex whatsoever." Really? And yet you had to modify your own and monitor a 13 page thread about numerous professionals with continual problems. Hermph.
"Please provide links to reports that claim "I have tightened it and it still happened" links to reports of recurring issues as I am curious how I could have missed them when I visit almost all major forums almost daily and I do not recollect seeing anything to that effect. This today is the first one." I did NOT have a loose bolt, btw, and I DO have the problem. Mine couldn't even be tightened AT ALL it was so tight. Fancy that.
"Which now that I wrote this makes me wonder: Could part of problem be" Wait, you admitted there is a problem? Weird.
"Not even close to light pressure. Also, my 25lbs is estimate (I was not using scale as scale would be "giving in") and I feel it is an underestimate, that it easily could be more as I leaned quite a bit onto it and I am not exactly on diet. Also, search for mine and blkyukon's posts on same subject and you will find he also said he could not easily bring them together once properly tightened. And then take a look at his avatar and build of his upper body.

If one can easily bring bp and housing together things are not fitting right. Once they are fitting right and are tightened right it takes so much pressure that panel would be giving in." Interesting. I've never put close to even 25 pounds of pressure, and did not, and do not have a loose bolt and yet I do have the problem.


Well, I think *you* sufficiently pointed out the fact that there is a problem, and I think that about covers it. Thanks
I think by now it is obvious to anyone reading this thread what your posts are about and how good your "logic" and experience. No further comments by me on that subject are needed.

With that said I will leave you with one thing to ponder on:

By definition of what pressure is (thank you so much for providing it, I would not have known what that is in spite of 5 years of university major that works directly with it every day all day long) very same moment you put tool on the surface you have created _pressure_ on the surface. Moment you have put hand on top of it you have created additional _pressure_. That is exactly same low pressure as when using rotary and we all know no further pressure is needed for rotary. Therefore 2+2 still equals 4 no matter how much time kids have for forum banter when they are out of school.

Now please stop derailing thread whose purpose is to help and have a nice day.

[Matt S.]

Quit the bickering. This thread has a lot of useful information and I don't want to lock it. You guys have gone way off topic, so you have 2 options:

-Get back on topic and cut out the BS / insults
-Take it to PM's.

Thanks :cool:

[dennish]

Will you can add me to this list of damage back plates. I insured that the center bolt was tight before ever turning the machine on for the first time and I also added a lock washer under the head of bolt. I was polishing on a flat surface with light pressure using a LC back pad and 85RD on a setting of 5 doing very light correction and jewelling when the back plate made contact with the house and caused light damage. There is not way that I was misusing the machine since it very light QD swirls and some weight of machine jewelling. I also use a PC, Cyclo, and rotary so I I’m not new to polishing.

[ZoranC]

Will you can add me to this list of damage back plates. I insured that the center bolt was tight before ever turning the machine on for the first time and I also added a lock washer under the head of bolt. I was polishing on a flat surface with light pressure using a LC back pad and 85RD on a setting of 5 doing very light correction and jewelling when the back plate made contact with the house and caused light damage. There is not way that I was misusing the machine since it very light QD swirls and some weight of machine jewelling. I also use a PC, Cyclo, and rotary so I I’m not new to polishing.
I can not see how light pressure can make the backing plate contact the housing as both blkyukon and I had to exert tons of pressure, way much more than anybody would ever press, for that to happen when everything is tightened.

I can see how things could happen even with light pressure and pad flat if felt ring slips out due to vibrations but bp contacting housing under light pressure no, I can not see how that can happen.

[dennish]

Not knowing how they are manufactured nor the tolerance they are manufactured to there is no way to solve this problem in a thread like this. From what I have seen this is not affecting all the machines so there are some that are just fine – just thinking out loud there could be several reasons. One being there is manufactured on difference lines or there is a certain combination of molds for the plate and head that are that if they are used together that causes clearance problems.

Mine after it hit the first time I took it apart and inspected the parts and did a little detective work. First I took out the felt ring and reinstalled the plate. Then I took a feeler gauge and went around the edge and found the clearance on the outside edge is about .030 of inch while the inner edge that made contact with only .004 of inch clearance. In a undamaged area – remember you have to remove the felt ring to accurately measure the inner clearance. Then I installed a backing plate and just ran the machine for about 10 minutes without buffing just to get the motor hot and the inner gap went from .004 to .002 from the heat and expansion. The outer gap also closed up by about .002. What would be interesting is that someone that isn’t have trouble measure the gaps and see if they are the same.

Like I hinted above I thing a back plate from mold “B” and housing from mold “A” may have a difference clearance then a back plate from mold A and housing from mold ”B”. Or maybe in was just a batch that tolerances were off.

What I did is file some of the backing plate till I had at least .012 gap on the inner ring and should solve the problem at least for me.

I will assure you that it did hit with light pressure and center screw was tight but I had using the machine for about 40 min or so and it was quite warm.

[ZoranC]

Not knowing how they are manufactured nor the tolerance they are manufactured to there is no way to solve this problem in a thread like this.
That is correct.

One being there is manufactured on difference lines or there is a certain combination of molds for the plate and head that are that if they are used together that causes clearance problems.
That is a possibility. Possibility of variation in tolerances is why I use double washer instead of single one.

Then I took a feeler gauge and went around the edge and found the clearance on the outside edge is about .030 of inch while the inner edge that made contact with only .004 of inch clearance.
Approximately 1/32" gap is correct gap from what I have heard from PowerHouse. However I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "inner edge". Could you illustrate please?

Then I installed a backing plate and just ran the machine for about 10 minutes without buffing just to get the motor hot and the inner gap went from .004 to .002 from the heat and expansion. The outer gap also closed up by about .002. What would be interesting is that someone that isn’t have trouble measure the gaps and see if they are the same.
Even though I don't know what you mean when you say "inner gap" amount of "closure" you mention does not add up to me, especially not from temperature created by 10 minutes of work. What coefficient of expansion you are talking about and what material would have such coefficient of expansion?

I will assure you that it did hit with light pressure and center screw was tight but I had using the machine for about 40 min or so and it was quite warm.
Screw might have been tight but your using of locking washer underneath the stock washer might be introducing non-flat surface and vertical wobble. Could you please post pic of locking washer you used? I would like to go to Home Depot, get same one, and try to see what that results in.

[mixxer]

what are you guys using to lube the felt ring is that fixing the problem?

[Junebug]

I read this whole thread....wow, all I can say is with the luck I have, I will have to pass on the Flex. It appears to be a nice machine and work great for a lot of people but there are a few issues and I can't be bothered by issues at this point in life. Also, it's not just this thread of problems either, I took some advice and got some foam wool pads, some Megs 95 and 1Z Intensiv Paste and I'm happy as a pig in crap with my makita!