Paint Cleaning by hand

[paulsiu]

Let's say that's a car that hasn't been waxed for a while. The paint is still ok, but obviously not the best shape. I don't want to clay or polish, but just want to use a cleansing product by hand to clean up the paint before applying wax. This sounds like I need a paint cleaner or one of the cleaner waxes?

I was thinking of something like Pinnacle Paintwork cleansing lotion, P21S Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleanser, SONAX Hybrid NPT Paint Cleaner, or Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer. I looked that the reviews. They all seemed to do what I want, but was wondering if someone here have experience using any of these product have some suggestion on which one is better when used by hand.

Keep in mind the vehicle is used for transport, so I am not looking to make it look showroom like. I just want to clean up the paint before waxing.

Paul

[MattPersman]

What wax are you using after the cleanup? How often are you doing these steps?

May be a time saver just to use a cleaner wax every 2-3 months


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[yakky]

Mother's step one is awesome for this.

[paulsiu]

Most likely the car would then waxed by Meguiar Fast Finish every 3-4 months, which seems like the most practical product to use a car use for hauling.

Hmm... How does Mother step one compare to the other products I mentioned. I suppose it would be cheaper and easier to find. I have only used Mother's clay product in the past.

Paul

[FUNX650]

Let's say that's a car that hasn't been
waxed for a while. The paint is still ok,
but obviously not the best shape.

I don't want to clay or polish,
but just want to use a cleansing product by hand
to clean up the paint before applying wax.

This sounds like I need a paint cleaner
or one of the cleaner waxes?

Keep in mind the vehicle is used for transport,
so I am not looking to make it look showroom like.

IMO:
•Sounds like this situation calls for an AIO:
-either a Cleaner-Wax;
-or, a Cleaner-Sealant (my preference).


•Here are a few Cleaner-Waxes/Sealants
that are available here at AGO:

-3M One Step Cleaner Wax
-Finish Kare 215 One Step Cleaner & Surface Sealant
-Optimum Poli-Seal
-Klasse All-In-One Polish
-Duragloss 101
-Mothers California Gold Carnauba Cleaner Wax
-Poorboy's World Polish w/100% Carnauba



Bob

[PBoy]

Dg 501

[Mike Phillips]

Just to chime in....


If you're going to work by hand, might as well apply an AIO versus a paint cleaner and get the most bang for your buck in all aspects.

A cleaner/wax will do everything a paint cleaner will do and more as it relates to removing any surface impurities, road film, oxidation, water spots, swirls and scratches AND leave the paint protected.

A paint cleaner will only remove LIGHT surface impurities, oxidation and road film and for the most part won't remove any below surface defects plus it won't leave the paint protected.


BLACKFIRE One Step applied with either a microfiber applicator pad of foam pad.


You can actually purchase a Nanoskin Hand Backing Pad and attach it to a Lake Country ThinPro pad and this will make working by hand a heck of a lot easier. Same idea as I show here for applying a vinyl dressing only instead, apply the cleaner wax.


Continued...

Vinyl Top
The vinyl top restoration as explained previously was cleaned using a three-step process,



Iron X plus machine scrubbing
McKee’s 37 Cleans-All – machine scrubbing
McKee’s 37 Xtreme Foam Formula – hand washing with Chenille microfiber wash mitt




To protect the now incredibly clean and bright 46-year old vinyl I chose a product from the Marine 31 line of products because it’s not a vinyl dressing but a vinyl coating that resists mold growth. I’m not too concerned about mold growth I mostly wanted the non-greasy, dry surface the Marine 31 Mold Guard. This product forms a clear layer of protection that resists staining while providing excellent UV protection too.

This product was applied using the same type of pad we used to machine apply the wax, that is a Lake Country 6.5” ThinPro red wax pad. The backing pad you see me wearing in the pictures when applying the Mold Guard is a hand backing pad from Nanoskin. Because the Nanoskin hand backing pad uses Velcro hooks to hold other products it works just as well to hold a foam buffing pad. I chose the ultra thin ThinPro red foam wax pad for the applicator pad because it’s THIN – it won’t absorb a ton of the Mold Guard like a thick pad and simply waste it.


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The above is just a single post to this thread.


How to restore a Barn Find - 1969 Ford Thunderbird - #7 Rub Out + FLEX = 3D products (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-thursday-night-detailing-classes/100420-how-restore-barn-find-1969-ford-thunderbird-7-rub-out-flex-%3D-3d-products.html)


:)

[paulsiu]

oops, I was going to get the 3M cleaner wax but decided to get the Pinnacle Paintworks cleansing lotion mostly because since I was expecting to apply a sealant later, the wax an AIO leave behind may get in the way of bonding.

In any case, I decided to buy stuff off AutoGeek. In the past, I have gotten stuff off Amazon, but buying from Autogeek supports this forum and Amazon keeps suspending my account every week or so due to a glitch in their record.

Paul

[Mike Phillips]

oops, I was going to get the 3M cleaner wax but decided to get the Pinnacle Paintworks cleansing lotion mostly because since I was expecting to apply a sealant later, the wax an AIO leave behind may get in the way of bonding.




Any residual substances left by a paint cleaner will not interfere with any wax or sealant bonding to the paint. And according to a real chemist, they can help the bonding process. See my article here,



Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31186-miscible-immiscible-wax-paint-sealant-bonding.html)



Sheldon explaining Quantum Physics to Penny on the Big Bang Theory
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/715/molculesbonding.jpg



Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding
The topic of bonding as it relates to a wax or a paint sealant bonding to paint comes up on most detailing discussion forums from time to time, and there's a lot of confusion and probably miss-information about this topic.

The idea presented is that in order for a wax or paint sealant to properly bond to an automotive paint finish, the paint finish must be chemically stripped so that the paint is surgically clean and free from any residual polishing oils or any other substances.

The goal is to insure there's nothing on the surface that could potentially interfere with the bonding action between the protection ingredients in a wax or paint sealant and the paint.


Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations
The first and primary consideration goes to the manufactures recommendations. If the manufacturer of a wax or paint sealant officially recommends that the surface of the paint must be stripped clean before their product can properly bond to the paint, then you should follow the recommendations of the manufacturer as they know their products best.

If the manufacturer does not specifically recommend that a painted surface needs to be stripped clean, then whatever recommendations they do provide should be followed as they know their products best.

To my knowledge, there are only a few manufacturers in the wax and paint sealant business that recommend that the surface of automotive paint be surgically clean and bare before their products can be applied. Besides these few companies, most manufacturers either recommend to apply their wax and/or paint sealant to the paint after first using their surface prep products which can include, compounds, polishes, paint cleaners and pre-wax cleaners. And of course, sometimes there are no specific recommendations.


Back in February of 2005, this topic came up when I worked for Meguiar's as it related to applying NXT Tech Wax over a surface previously polished using Meguiar's M80 Speed Glaze.

Here's the specific thread,

Do Glazes/Fillers affect the bonding of NXT? (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4831)


I contacted R&D, communicated with one of the Chemists, and then posted a statement provided to me on this topic.




A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application.

This means the addition of any Meguiar's polishes prior to the wax application will not only enhance the paint finish, but also aid in the appearance, adherence and overall lasting ability of the wax which is applied over the top of it.




Since leaving Meguiar's and joining the Autogeek Team in 2009, the topic of bonding has come up from time to time. I knew I had written on this topic, but could not remember the keyword or words to help me locate the above thread. Then I remembered the word, did a search and found the thread.

Here are the key words, and note the portions I've formatted to be bold, red and italic...


Taken from TheFreeDictionary.com (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/)

Miscible
Relating to two or more substances, such as water and alcohol, that can be mixed together or can dissolve into one another in any proportion without separating.


Immiscible
Incapable of being mixed or blended together. Immiscible liquids that are shaken together eventually separate into layers. Oil and water are immiscible.
I'm not a chemist and don't ever claim to be one and do everything I can to avoid talking or typing over my head. That said, it is my opinion that while the above information is supplied by a chemist at Meguiar's, it's probably true for most quality waxes and paint sealants manufactured by reputable companies, unless they state otherwise, i.e., unless they state that the surface must be stripped clean before applying their wax or paint sealant.


So unless a manufacturer specifically states or recommends that an automotive paint finish must be stripped clean for their wax or paint sealant to properly bond or adhere, then I think it's safe to say that the chemist behind the brand has created their wax and paint sealant formulas to use the same miscible oils, (or other miscible substances), in their surface prep products to aid in the bonding or adhering of the protection ingredients used in their waxes and/or paint sealants to paint.

This would be called, Synergistic Chemical Compatibility.


It's entirely possible that a lot of popular waxes and paint sealants on the market will bond or adhere to paint correctly after the paint has been prepped using compounds, polishes and paint cleaners outside the brand of the waxes or paint sealants being applied. There's no easy way of knowing or testing, but in my opinion, I would think the chances for this type of chemical compatibility to be more likely than less likely as there is probably some common chemistry involved in surface prep products and protection products that overlaps among different polish and wax companies.

That's just my opinion or guesstimate, you can make up your own mind.

My good friend, Tom aka Mosca as he's known on detailing discussion forums, once posted,



I've never walked out into a garage only to find out that overnight the wax or paint sealant I applied slipped off the car's paint and piled-up on the floor surrounding the car because it didn't bond or stick to the paint.



I would have to agree with Tom.


To strip or not to strip?
Do you need to chemically strip your car's paint with some type of solvent before applying a wax or paint sealant to enable the protection ingredients to better bond or adhere to the paint?

Manufacturer's Specific Recommendation
Only if the wax or paint sealant manufacturer specifically recommends this procedure.

Or
Personal Preference
If after researching this topic you personally want and feel the need to chemically strip the paint.

Or
Forum Member's Recommendation
See what I wrote above under Personal Preference
If you use good quality products and follow the manufacturer's directions, plus work clean and use good technique, then you should be able to apply your choice of wax or paint sealant directly to your car's paint after wiping off the residue left by the last surface prep product used on the paint. This, by the way, is my normal practice, and below is my personal recommendation on this topic as taken from here.


How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/31183-how-mix-ipa-inspecting-correction-results.html)


Excerpt



Personal Recommendation For Removing Waxes and Paint Sealants
To remove any previously applied wax or paint sealant, I recommend using a light paint cleaner or a light polish applied by hand or machine. A light paint cleaner or abrasive polish will effectively remove any previously applied wax or paint sealant AND leave the paint looking clear and glossy. I call this working forward in the process because the goal is to create beauty.

Chemically stripping the paint will tend to dull the paint; it certainly doesn't increase gloss and clarity. You don't see the dulling effect unless you're working on black paint and repeat the process multiple times. Since not everyone works on black paint, and you're not going to make stripping your car's paint a daily routine, it could be you won't see the dulling effect on your car's paint but it does take place.

Wiping a clear coated black finish over and over and over again with any type of solvent isn't going to make the top clear layer of paint more and more clear, it's going to do the opposite, that is dull it down.

So chemically stripping paint is what I call working backwards in the process. I, personally, prefer to work forwards in all my detailing projects but do understand the reasons why some people want to chemically strip their car's paint, or their customer's car's paint, and each person can decide what the best approach is for their needs.

And again, since you're not chemically stripping the paint as a "practice" but only during a detailing session, the dulling effect is not an issue, but I wanted to point it out just for the most detail oriented detailing enthusiasts or Pro Detailers reading this article.











In any case, I decided to buy stuff off AutoGeek. In the past, I have gotten stuff off Amazon, but buying from Autogeek supports this forum and Amazon keeps suspending my account every week or so due to a glitch in their record.

Paul


Thank you Paul.

This forum is kind of like our staff on the phones, it provides customer care before and after the sale.


:)

[yakky]

Most likely the car would then waxed by Meguiar Fast Finish every 3-4 months, which seems like the most practical product to use a car use for hauling.

Hmm... How does Mother step one compare to the other products I mentioned. I suppose it would be cheaper and easier to find. I have only used Mother's clay product in the past.

Paul

It's easy to find, priced fairly, cleans well and seems to leave nothing behind. It leaves the surface squeaky clean, literally, like Dawn on plastic.

[dlc95]

I'd also go for an "All In One" cleaner sealant.

Duragloss 101, or 501


Also, Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant - while not a "cleaner" on the traditional sense, does have a light chemical cleaner in it to ensure proper protection bonding.