Removing heavy orange peel - Denim Pad failed

[rs4imola]

Removing heavy orange peel - Denim Pad failed (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/122376-removing-heavy-orange-peel-denim-pad-failed.html)




Hello,

i have a repainted rs4 b5 in imola yellow with heavy orange peer.

I tried Carpro Denim Pads with Menzerna FG400, Carpro Clearcut and Carpro Fixer

But it didnt removed the orange peel.

The machine was a makita 9270 with a festool backing plate, which i run up to 1400 rpm (3 on the machine).

After that i used a megs microfiber cutting pad with the flex xfe 12-150 and carpro clearcut. The finish is better compared to the untouched places, where i have lot of scratches.

Any tips on how i can remove it?

Should i try 2000 wetsanding paper by hand or machine?

Unfortunately on imola yellow pictures of the defects/orange peel are hard to capture.

[Mike Phillips]

Hello,

i have a repainted rs4 b5 in imola yellow with heavy orange peer.

I tried Carpro Denim Pads with Menzerna FG400, Carpro Clearcut and Carpro Fixer

But it didnt removed the orange peel.

The machine was a makita 9270 with a festool backing plate, which i run up to 1400 rpm (3 on the machine).



Yeah.... that's not the best way to remove orange peel.

I would tend to call that grinding, not leveling. I'd say if you didn't burn through the paint you're lucky.






Any tips on how i can remove it?

Should i try 2000 wetsanding paper by hand or machine?

Unfortunately on imola yellow pictures of the defects/orange peel are hard to capture.




What are you working on?


:)

[rs4imola]

I have plenty of paint - regarding the thickness measurement.

What do you mean with what iam working on?

[Mike Phillips]

Just to note....

I've pretty much been answering questions on this forum all day. Questions sent to me via e-mail and Facebook and questions posted here on the forum.

You can see here (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/search.php?searchid=2565840)

It's a form of Customer Service here at Autogeek. Most people think customer service is calling our 1-800 phone number and it is, but me typing out in-depth answers is another forum of customer service.


My point is, I'm leaving work for the day, both physically and mentally. I'll check on this thread in the morning.


So let me know what it is you're working on, the color is not as important as the "thing".


:cheers:

[rs4imola]

That is the car iam working on:

66008

It is a Audi Rs4 B5 from 2001

[Mike Phillips]

I have plenty of paint - regarding the thickness measurement.

What do you mean with what iam working on?

Is it factory paint or custom paint job?


:)

[Mike Phillips]

Factory paint is very thin in the context of a custom paint job.


Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/2009-to-2017-how-to-articles-by-mike-phillips/87410-clearcoats-thin-mike-phillips.html)



So if it's factory paint I wouldn't be sanding with #2000 grit.

You could scuff it with #3000 Trizact and this would flatten out the orange peel.

:)

[rs4imola]

No the car was originaly silver painted and it has been repainted in imola yellow.

I have about 350 microns paint on the car, where the clearcot has about 35 (regarding the positector 200)

I read your post about the denim pads:

How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/69156-how-remove-orange-peel-using-porter-cable-dual-action-polisher.html)

And my paint has the same orange peel

[Mike Phillips]

No the car was originaly silver painted and it has been repainted in imola yellow.

I have about 350 microns paint on the car, where the clearcot has about 35 (regarding the positector 200)



35 mincrons is approximately 1.4 mils - to me this is too thin to sand, compound and polish and then trust it will hold up over time.


I looked up this PTG and on the webpage here (https://www.defelsko.com/positector-200) it states,


Advanced Models

Includes ALL features as shown on left plus...

• Measure the total thickness of a coating system or up to 3 individual layer thicknesses in a multi-layer system. Also features graphic readout for detailed analysis of the coating system.


And I hate to assume but if you do in fact have the ADVANCDED MODEL of the PosiTector 200 and you only have 35 microns of clearcoat over all the underlying layers of basecoat/primer/e-coat, etc. then in my opinion, the clear layer is too thin to safely sand with #2000 grit sandpaper or sanding discs.

Sure you can do it, but remember,


Sanding removes paint
Compounding removes paint
Polishing removes a little paint


At some point, you could sand, compound or polish through the clearcoat and expose the basecoat. Here's what I always type about this, (for 17 years now)


Words cannot describe the heart sinking feeling that overcomes you when you discover you have sanded or buffed through the clearcoat -Mike Phillips


But if you want to try, then I would highly recommend getting the 3M Trizact #3000 grit sanding discs and then carefully machine sand all the major portions of the flat panels. After this, use a wool pad and a GREAT compound with a rotary buffer to methodically remove your sanding marks 100%. After that machine polish with any quality orbital polish and a medium to fine cut polish to remove the holograms and maximize gloss and clarity. Then if the paint is cured, (older than 30 days), go ahead and seal the surface of the paint with a wax, synthetic sealant or ceramic paint coating.






I read your post about the denim pads:

How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/69156-how-remove-orange-peel-using-porter-cable-dual-action-polisher.html)

And my paint has the same orange peel



I wrote that review of the denim pads back in 2013 when they were first introduced to the market. I used them on the hood of the Cow Truck. And as I shared, the pads did work.


How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69156-how-remove-orange-peel-using-porter-cable-dual-action-polisher.html)

How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher

Step 1 - Wash or wipe the car or panel to be de-peeled clean.

Step 2 - Inspect for above surface bonded contaminants and remove if discovered.

Step 3 - Place compound on fact of CarPro Denim Pad

Step 4 - On a medium speed setting use polisher to spread product out over an area about 18" squarish or so, don't try to work to large of an area and divide larger panels up into smaller sections.

Step 5 - Increase speed setting to the 6 setting and then start making VERY slow overlapping passes in a crosshatch pattern. Make 8-12 section passes but don't run buffer till product is dry on the surface.

Step 6 - Wipe residue off section and visually inspect the paint to determine how much orange peel has been removed. If you're happy with the results move onto a new section and be sure to overlap a little into the previous section. If you want to remove more peel repeat the process.

Pad Cleaning
Clean any excess product off the face of the pad after each use of pad to a section.


Ensure Pad Rotation
Removing orange peel using a dual action polisher requires the pad be rotating during the the process. To make it easier to make sure you have good pad rotation, mark your backing plate.

Tape off any raised edges
The edges of the CarPro Denim Pads are harder than a foam buffing pad and if you accidentally bump the edges of the pads into any raised edges, trim or components you could mar these surfaces, so tape them off to protect them.


Framing up the shot so you can clearly see where on the truck I'm working...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_014.jpg

Here's the test section taped off...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_014c.jpg



Dieback or Shrinkback
The below close-up shows what is called Dieback or Shrinkback in the basecoat and the clearcoat.

See this article...
Here's what Dieback or Shrinkback looks like in fresh paint (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69103-here-s-what-dieback-shrinkback-looks-like-fresh-paint.html)


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_015.jpg


Orange Peel
The term orange peel gets it's meaning because the surface of the paint has a texture that looks like the texture of an orange. You can think of orange peel as being hills and valleys over the surface of the body panels of your car's paint job. That is high spots and low spots. The effect this has is to make reflections look fuzzy or muted. The opposite of clear and sharp.

Most people do not like the look orange peel gives their car. Lots of people would like to find a way to safely remove orange peel to increase the DOI or Distinction of Image in their car's paint job. The higher the DOI the sharper an image is reflected in the paint. A true show car finish does not have any orange peel in the paint and this is the goal of custom car builders and custom painters.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_041.jpg



Meguiar's M100 Pro Speed Compound
This is an aggressive cutting compound formulated for use with rotary buffers and wool pads to remove down to #1200 grit sanding marks. In this example I'm using it wrong in a quest to both test this type of compound with Denim Pads and for removing orange peel using a dual action polisher.

I've placed a squiggly line on the face of the product and next I'm going to place the face of the pad against the paint and smear it around on the 4.0 Speed Setting to get the product all over the face of the pad and to spread it out all over the section I'm going to work on. It's not a very scientific method of priming the pad, you can call it the Mike Phillips Method or the lazy guys' method.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_016.jpg



Slow Overlapping Passes on the 6.0 Speed Setting
I buffed this section out three times to really knock the orange peel down. Each time repeating the same process. Apply product to the face of the pad, spread it over the section on the 4.0 setting to prime the pad and to spread the product out over the section to be worked. Then turn the speed up to the 6.0 setting and then s-l-o-w down my Arm Speed, moving the polisher very slowly over the paint. Using a crosshatch pattern and overlapping each pass by about 50%. Very basic DA procedure for most DA type work. No rocket science here folks.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_017.jpg



Product residue on worked section
Sometimes I take a picture just to show a picture of what the action is taking place on the surface. In this example, this is M100 residue that I'm going to wipe-off.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_018.jpg



Clean you pad often
There's literally no place for any paint you're removed or spent product to hide or bury into because the surface of the pad is as flat as the jeans you wear. So clean your pad often, or as I always say, work clean.

To do this I'm using the standard Nylon Pad Conditioning Brush and while it does work to remove any excess residue off the face of the pad it still doesn't leave a pad surface that looks new. So don't get all worked up over it. Just do the best you can and get back to work.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_019.jpg



This is the third time I worked this section
Just a picture to show that "yes" I really did work the section. You can take my word for it that I worked this section 3 times or I can get forum member miamijd7 aka Detective John (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69145-north-miami-beach-police-department-certificate-appreciation.html) to be my witness as he was there and took some of these pictures.



http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_021.jpg



Make sure the pad is rotating
The feature of a rotary buffer is it rotates a pad in a single, circular motion. If you're going to use a Porter Cable like a rotary buffer, then you need to make sure the pad is always rotating. This is pretty easy to do on the 6.0 speed setting because these pads are THIN.

Thin pads rotate better than thick pads when it comes to "foam buffing pads" and this is true for other types of pads too. Hint hint... take a clue from how thin Meguiar's made their Microfiber DA Cutting pads. They know how to take advantage of the Free Rotating Spindle Bearing Assembly used in these types of tools including their G110v2 and the Griot's Garage DA Polisher.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_022.jpg



Results...


Before
Okay, we started here...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_015.jpg


After
And now we're here... note how I purposefully framed this shot up showing the center trim down the middle of the hood behind my hand so you would know this is the exact same area.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_024.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_023.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_026.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_027.jpg



Demarcation Line
In the below picture you can see there are two sides to the results, this is where the tape-line ran across the hood.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_028.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_029.jpg



More Demarcation Lines
These pictures were taken of the overhead lights reflecting on the paint on the windshield side of the tape-line.

Here's the overhead florescent lights totally reflecting in a section of paint that has NOT been buffed with the CarPro Orange Peel Pads.


http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_036.jpg


Close-up of the same shot above...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_037.jpg


In this shot, with my flash on, you can see where I've moved the reflection of the overhead florescent lights into the section that was buffed with the Denim pads.

In this shot, so far the paint has only been buffed with the Denim pads and the M100 but notice how nice the paint looks in the flash of the camera. Not bad...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_038.jpg



Close-up of the same shot above...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_039.jpg


Orange Peel Removed Section with flash on...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_042.jpg



Extreme Close-up

And here's an extreme close-up shot I took in the close-up mode on my Canon T5i

One thing I would like to point out and that is anytime you're buffing next to an actual strip of tape on paint, it's harder to remove as much paint right near the tape line as it is a few inches away, even so... you can really see a difference in surface texture in the before and after sections separated by here the tape-line wax.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_030.jpg



After Machine Polishing
After I was finished testing the CarPro Denim Orange Peel Pads a team of guys and myself buffed out the rest of the truck because it was a mess. It arrived covered with yellow overspray paint and filled with swirls and scratches. Click the below two links to see articles on these topics.

A $4.00 Plastic Drop Cloth could have prevented this... (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69101-4-00-plastic-drop-cloth-could-have-prevented.html)

How to remove overspray paint using the Cyclo Polisher (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/69154-how-remove-overspray-paint-using-cyclo-polisher.html)

1949 Chevy 5-Window Pickup Extreme Makeover - Pictures & Videos (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/pictures-autogeek-s-car-week/69059-1949-chevy-5-window-pickup-extreme-makeover-pictures-videos.html)




Back to the results...

Here's the hood after polishing and waxing...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_031.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/2016/How_To_Remove_Orange_Peel_Without_Sanding_032.jpg






After sharing the above, I took the time to read through the entire thread. The entire thread is worthy of reading and you'll never ever find anything like this on Facebook. Never.

Found this,

How many denim pads to get (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions-/69156-how-remove-orange-peel-using-porter-cable-dual-action-polisher-5.html#post1133234)


And here's my take...

If I wanted to remove the orange peel off of the factory paint on a car I would opt to use 3M Trizact and do what I teach called,

Scuff & Buff



It will be faster and easier than using denim pads. Also something I said in my article on using a PC to remove orange peel was I think the REAL secret to removing orange peel with denim pads comes down to the compound.


Now follow me as I'm going to go DEEP...

Most modern high quality compounds used sub-micron size abrasive particles, that is you CANNOT feel any GRIT if you pour some out of the bottle and feel it between your fingers. It's to non-aggressive and that's why so many great compounds today will finish out like a polish.

I "think" and old school, LOW QUALITY compound, one with caveman grit or caveman abrasive technology would work FASTER when using a denim pad. Why? Because the abrasives, their larger size trapped between the paint and the hard surface of the denim would work better to chop off or abrade-off the tops of the hills and not the valleys and do it faster than a high quality compound.

The above is just my theory and I never went back and tested it. (I share this theory back in 2013 somewhere in the above article)





:)

[rs4imola]

I took some readings again.

The clearcoat has about 85-99microns:

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/97c3e9-1551287007.jpg (https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-97c3e9-1551287007.jpg.html)

This is how the paint looks:

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/ec95f2-1551287218.jpg (https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-ec95f2-1551287218.jpg.html)

I used kovax tolecut 2000, followed by 3000 dry.

This killed the orange peel:

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/04bc2a-1551288591.jpg (https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-04bc2a-1551288591.jpg.html)

But the tolecut papers are only 4cm big, so it woud be a pain.

Is there a good dry or wet paper for cutting a whole car?

Instead of air, i would prefer an electric tool as my compressor could not supply a air tool like this

[Mike Phillips]

***Bump***


Need a clean URL



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Hi rs4imola,

Found your thread on DW here,

Removing orange peel on RS4 - Denim Pads failed - Detailing World (https://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=412139)


Always love to see this kind of interactivity.


:dblthumb2: