Road Grime Futility?

[steelwindmachine]

Hi folks! I'm confused about the subject of road grime as it relates to clear coat protection for daily drivers. I've seen several videos about how pH-neutral soaps do not clean road grime off the clear coat.

I watched a video where a pro-detailer washes his clients car with Purple Power and then uses Meg's Ultimate Quik Wax for protection.

His rationale is:
1. supplies were cheap = more profit
2. PP cuts through and cleans road grime leaving paint truly clean despite stripping previously applied wax/sealants
3. He reapplies a spray wax/sealant after every watch as temporary protection until the next wash.

He states that pH-neutral soaps don't remove road grime and by not actually removing it when you wash with these neautral soaps then you're just rubbing around the grime on the clear coat causing more damage and it builds up wash to wash until you clay.

This got me wondering whether or not washing the car with pH-neutral soaps isn't for real just causing more damage despite it not stripping much or all of your wax/sealant from a previous application (AIO, 2-3 step, etc.)?

I started looking into pH, soap and how it relates to actually cleaning oily, fall-out, coolant, asphaltic crap. I found that apparently one of the reasons Dawn works so well at removing oil is because it has petroleum in it. Now I know Dawn is not recommended for use on a clear coat. However, wouldn't it make sense to fully clean off all the road grime during a wash rather than letting it or traces of it continue to sit on whatever protection you've put on?

Notice that I haven't mentioned "coatings" here. I believe, since I have no personal experience with them, that the ceramic coatings create more of a hard surface barrier and may be able to handle more aggressive cleaners before breaking down?

I'm just confused by the purpose of pH-neutral soap used on daily drive cars when it doesn't actually fully clean the surface. Does it make sense to completely clean and strip the surface and then reapply a fresh coat of protectant at each wash to ensure you're not creating more damage by washing/drying?

If that's the case, then it seems to me that using an AIO can be a time saver on a daily driver to get some mild correction and put down a sacrificial protectant that will get washed off. Then, after that wash apply a new coating of protectant (spray, machine apply, etc.) to hold things over until the next wash.

[Setec Astronomy]

Holy cow that sounds like a lot of mis-information in that vid. I think well-maintained vehicles like any member here has, are a different animal from the abused DD that is the typical client of a pro-detailer (who doesn't have a following of customers that he well-maintains for).

No doubt a pH-neutral car soap is kind of "weak" when you're talking about oil residue that can get kicked up off the road and certainly the mag-chloride that they put down here in NJ these days creates some sort of hard-to-clean residue, but I'm pretty sure I "fully cleaned" my cars over the weekend. Oh, and Dawn doesn't have "petroleum" in it.

[steelwindmachine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnMZNq4ot0

As per the Dawn SDS it contains:
Sulfuric acid, mono-C10-16-alkyl esters, sodium salts
Poly(oxy-1,2-ethanediyl), alpha-sulfo-omega-hydroxy-, C10-16-alkyl ethers, sodium salts
Amine oxides, C10-16-alkyldimethyl
Ethanol
...and has a pH of 9.2

[steelwindmachine]

Setec, what method/products did you use to clean your cars?

FYI - I wish I had had the time to clean mine =\ too busy with other commitments and chores.

[Mike Phillips]

I watched that video.... nothing against it or him and nothing for it or him... I think everyone can take from it what they will...


I have an article that uses pictures to document road film or embedded dirt build-up on car paint here,

Road Film - If you drive your car in the rain your car has road film (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/72159-road-film-if-you-drive-your-car-rain-your-car-has-road-film.html)


It can happen with just the dirt and pollution in the air too, you don't have to have rain but rain is a multiplier of the road grime stain that builds up.


To me, I think and my experience shows that a good once-a-year polishing takes care of the problem for real. No guessing. Plus removes a zillion light swirls and scratches and all other kinds of light defects that washing will never remove.

Plus, a light polishing instantly restores that super high gloss look we all love.

This is also why I'm simply NOT a fan of anything that lasts over a year (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 25 etc. year coatings), and that's because my experience shows me even the coating will get a build-up on it if it is in fact a daily driver.



:)

[steelwindmachine]

Mike,

Thank you for chiming in too!

As a home car care enthusiast who is susceptible to analysis paralysis and overload of information, it's much appreciated to have the input of this forum's users and yourself to really clarify what's sensible and realistic for non-pro's and daily driven vehicles.

I got the feeling that the gentleman in the video was making more of a point of how he maximizes profit and deliver what his customers expect. It obviously works for him, but I started to wonder whether or not it would work for me.

Thanks to the input here I understand that it just isn't possible for me wash my car like that. The frequency of washing/protectant application in order to keep up a satisfactory level of protection won't work for the extended periods of time where I can't be cleaning my car(s).

I've read your Road Film article before, but hey, I admit, I was slightly duped by the guy in the video into thinking that maybe my process and understanding of products wasn't correct.

I understand what you're saying about what are essentially dimishing returns on 1+ year coatings. Really, whether it's a coating's surface or the clear coat surface, stuff builds up on it and if you want it to look good, it needs to be cleaned and the method of cleaning to bring back that clarity will almost definitely leave the clear coat bare and/or a coating substancially diminished. Do I have that correct?

I just want to do what's best for my vehicles, but keep in mind that I have very limted time, low-to-moderate budget and align my expectations accordingly.

[RippyD]

This is also why I'm simply NOT a fan of anything that lasts over a year (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 25 etc. year coatings), and that's because my experience shows me even the coating will get a build-up on it if it is in fact a daily driver.
Thanks. This is validating to those of us who have tried coatings and are scratching our heads on the contamination issue and how to manage it.

[SWETM]

I think that road grime or contaminants is build up on every car. And it's different ways to handle it to when a polish of some sort is needed. The climate environment and what kind of roads you are driving on has to do with the extent of road grime. And the most impact that rarely be mentioned is how long the cars is driven over a year. A garage queen against a dd with a long way to work is a no brainer which get the most road grime to it.

I have not any experience with Purple Power. But you who have used maybe know if it's well lubricated as a quality car soap? That's is the first that came to mind when I saw the video. It's a degreaser and you can dilute it to specific tasks. And the little I have read about it you have to stay away from aluminum. That tells me that it can have some acid surfactans in it as some wheel cleaner has. And can stain certain materials and you would look up if it can be used safe on a car.

I use different chemicals that is made for use on cars. And use them as they are intended to. The big thing with chemical use on cars is to not let them dry on the car. In the winter months I use a solvent based tar degreaser to the lower parts of the side panels and back of the car. This is for desolve the road grime the road salt is loosen up from the asfalt roads. To the whole car I use a prewash foam or a alkaline based degreaser. This make it easier to clean with the wash media and car soaps when touching the paint. And I feel like it's a more gentle way to do than rinse of the loose dirt and almost has to scrub the paint clean with the wash mitt. In the summer months I still use a prewash foam or a alkaline based degreaser but more diluted than in the winter. This does that the insects almost runs off the front and gets a little more clean when it's time for touching the paint. Sure it takes more on the lsp this way maybe. But with a good chemical resistant lsp and it's for me a safer way to do it. And if needed to a lsp is fast to apply these days. Now I have gyeon wet coat on and it's working great.

When the spring comes it's time for polishing my car and apply a coating. Then I know how much of road grime and contaminants has got imbedded to the paint. A decon wash followed by claying and then the first kind of pad and compound or polish depends on what the test spot says. That first pad will tell how much of road grime and contaminants was imbedded to the clearcoat.

I think that the more road grime and contaminants get imbedded in the clearcoat the more wash indused swirls you get. That's why I use different chemicals in the prewash stage. And even do a thorough decon wash 2-3 times a year and if needed reapply the lsp. Now it will be the first time with a coating for me. It's a little strange to call it coating when the name is Polish Angel Master Sealant. But I do since it's based on sio2 and tio2. Think it's cause of the longevity is claimed up to a year only. That will suit me fine as I will see how I can get it as swirl free as possible and how much the imbedded grime will be after that year. If it holds up that long lol.

[Calendyr]

I think Scott made a lot of valid points in his video. That being said, he is looking at it from a Detailer's point of view. As a owner, you should definatelly evaluate your situation and come up with a maintenance plan that is appropriate for you.

As a detailer, I also use a hard wash on most of the vehicles I work on. The vast majority of my clients do not keep the car clean as it should be and have contaminants on their paint including road film. So when I work on their car, I need a clean slate and that means a wash that can remove as much gunk as possible before I touch the paint. I have not tried Purple power boat and car, but I mix my own solution which is 50% dawn, 50% car shampoo. I use it both in the foam cannon and in the wash bucket.

For cars I will not be applying a sealant to or polishing (maintenance washes) I use a shampoo that contain wax. This is mostly to provide more lubrication during the wash cause I don't think the wax in those shampoo is gonna provide much protection. It's a weak topper to what ever protection is already on the vehicle.

[Setec Astronomy]

Setec, what method/products did you use to clean your cars?

I did a wash in the rain last week or the other week with Griot's wash...this weekend I used DG rinseless.

TBH I hadn't watched that video before I commented the first time, I simply read your observations about it. Now that I've watched it...well, I think it's a good video. I think some of the points he makes are ideas that we've beat to death between here and Autopia, regarding the "goodness" of waxing every wash by using a spray wax or sealant as a drying aid, or using a wash with wax or sealant in it which has become popular.

I've could certainly be quoted as saying any member could do far worse than simply washing and (often) applying a WOWA sealant to the entire car (paint, glass, rubber, trim), and never doing anything else (which is substantially what the video was promoting). That's presuming the trim etc. is all in good shape to begin with. That sounds like a good experiment for someone with a new car, to just wash and WOWA sealant the whole car after every wash...I bet you'd do pretty well that way.

As far as the "controversial" part of it...to paraphrase Mike Phillips...I'm kind of agnostic about it...yeah, it's possible that a "pH neutral" shampoo isn't getting the car as clean as a more caustic wash, but it's also possible that the Purple Power isn't getting it completely clean, either, or that the neutral soap is. I can see it going either way. It's hard to argue with doing a good cleaning and putting a fresh coat of LSP down every time you wash the car...but as I said, a lot of us are doing that already.

FWIW, I don't wash with Purple Power and I rarely get any brown gunk on my clay, and I don't clay very often, either. That's not to say I didn't the first time I clayed, but part of the reason I don't clay that often is simply because I don't get that brown gunk...so it seems like a waste of time. There are so many variables.

[steelwindmachine]

Thanks to all of you for the input on this.

To wrap up, here's my pseudo car care mission statement of sorts...

For my daily driver situation, all of the three vehicles I take care live outside. They're exposed to the elements year round.

My amount of free time is limited. So while I'd love to do a show car level of correction on all of them, I'd be throwing my time away since the upkeep to retain that level of finish isn't realistic.

I'm weighing the time vs. results of doing a Jescar Compound (maybe spot treatments) + AIO (HD Speed, Blackfire, or MK 360) for a first volley of correction to all of my cars.

Washing is done with ONRWW followed by drying with Opti-Seal.

I think a once a year spring/early-summer polish (AIO) is where I'll start and then I'll do some sort of topper for winter to extend the AIO's integrated protection. Maybe machine applied Collinite 476 or 845. Opt Gloss-Coat was a thought but it's more expensive than the Collinite and maybe isn't worth the extra money for my situation.

I believe one of the most difficult things for me to do is to figure out the best process for my situation given the volumes of opinions, products and variables. The internet and all of the combined knowledge and experiences is both a help and a hinderance for those that are particular and really want to sort out the "best".

For type-A people like me, it's been a nightmare compared to the methodology of pre-internet. You'd go to the local auto parts store and just pick something off the shelf and use it. Now that shelf has turned into a global warehouse full of options.

I'm really glad you folks chimed in. I'm always looking to have professionals and experienced enthusiasts cut to the chase about what's "real" and what's marketing hype. That's certainly what grabbed me about the video I posted. As for AG, I totally understand Mike has a biz to run and needs to sell stuff to survive, but despite his promotion of many like products, I find the most value in his writings is when he reveals his mental process.

When he communicates that for a daily driver in relation to road grime accumulation, protection beyond 1 year isn't sensible in his opinion, that really resonates with me. Why invest the time and money to remove every imperfection and apply a multi-year level of protection that if you care to rid the paint of road grime will only be compromised by efforts to remove said road grime? Then what purpose is the coating really serving that a lower cost, lower effort wax or sealant could provide? It seems to me that that would be working backwards both with the labor and your wallet. That's a Mike Phillips' golden nugget!

[Mike Phillips]

I'm really glad you folks chimed in. I'm always looking to have professionals and experienced enthusiasts cut to the chase about what's "real" and what's marketing hype. That's certainly what grabbed me about the video I posted.

As for AG, I totally understand Mike has a biz to run and needs to sell stuff to survive,




And just to make sure there's no confusion with anyone that will read this thread into the future....

I don't own Autogeek or AutogeekOnline, I'm just a Blue Collar Working Class Dog that works here. I have my regular job duties but I also clean the floor and do all the microfiber laundry.





but despite his promotion of many like products, I find the most value in his writings is when he reveals his mental process.




Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. Lots of opinions on how to detail cars in the blogosphere and I completely get that it's part of the process to wade through all the opinions and hopefully find some that make sense.



:dblthumb2:

[Paul A.]

The single biggest reason I heed Mike's advice is because, as he says, he walks the walk. I clearly understand he works for PBMG and they sell detailing products however he is absolutely just like us...he enjoys the processes of detailing and is genuine in relaying to us his vast amount of experience and expertise.

I have been all over the interwebbie over the years and have seen hundreds of "sales" people related to detailing. I've never felt Mike is selling, he teaches. I also think he gets sincerely excited when someone posts up a recently completed job that came out great. Just like the rest of us "joes" who can appreciate what it takes to do it right.

[MoBenzOwner]

The single biggest reason I heed Mike's advice is because, as he says, he walks the walk. I clearly understand he works for PBMG and they sell detailing products however he is absolutely just like us...he enjoys the processes of detailing and is genuine in relaying to us his vast amount of experience and expertise.

I have been all over the interwebbie over the years and have seen hundreds of "sales" people related to detailing. I've never felt Mike is selling, he teaches. I also think he gets sincerely excited when someone posts up a recently completed job that came out great. Just like the rest of us "joes" who can appreciate what it takes to do it right.

Totally agree with what you say about Mike. He is a great resource for us all. If he went around simply pushing products for a quick sale, he wouldn't have the credibility and following he clearly has. In my book he is a straight shooter and I put stock in his teachings and opinions!

[Calendyr]

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnMZNq4ot0)

As per the Dawn SDS it contains:
Sulfuric acid, mono-C10-16-alkyl esters, sodium salts
Poly(oxy-1,2-ethanediyl), alpha-sulfo-omega-hydroxy-, C10-16-alkyl ethers, sodium salts
Amine oxides, C10-16-alkyldimethyl
Ethanol
...and has a pH of 9.2

What you need to take into account is that you are not using Dawn concentrated on the paint. You will dilute it in a lot of water. Probably 256:1. So when you dilute it that much, it will be pretty much PH neutral or just slightly alkalyne. I am sure someone knows how to calculate PH changes when diluting but roughtly, each number on the PH scale represents a 10 fold increase, so at 128:1 I am guestimating 2.2 PH levels lower than the concentrate (might be wrong) so very close to 7