clear coat repair gone horribly wrong......

[Bones106]

Hi all and welcome to my nightmare.....

I have a client with a BMW 328I who just purchased the vehicle, but the hood and trunk lid clear coat had some significant ripples from a dealer re-shoot and lots of odd defects (that look liked watermarks, but weren't). The clear on this is incredibly hard and the surfaces looked like narrow whale corduroy when I started, however they are now hardly noticeable. This being said there are now incredible holograms......despite what I thought was the proper technique and compound / polish combo after attempts on a test panel...here is what I used, please critique...



initial wet sand with trizact 3000 on rupes 21LRH for larger areas, griots & Porter cable for 3 inch westand
3000 mark removal with Chemical Guys V 32 & 6" microfiber cutting pad ( initially used Menzerna 300 super cut but this was a bit too aggressive)
CG V 32 removal with CG V 34 and yellow pad
Yellow pad removal with CG V 34 and orange pad
Orange pad removal with CG V 36 and green pad
Green pad removal with CG V38 and white pad.


I had also attempted to use meguiars 105 / 205 but this clearcoat was not having it, which is odd.....this paint also really didn't like Rupes Keramik

During the process I was always checking the results using a paint cleaner to remove polish wax that can hide defects. Last night under inspection lights the trunk looked like competition paint, now it looks horrible. Needless to say I am dumbfounded that this clear has turned out so poorly. The downside is now the clear is so thin that I am going to have to most likely have the hood re-shot for client.....

I am sure I have missed something that y'all need, please let me know.

I look forward to any advice or constructive criticisms offered.

Thanks all, have a great summer

[RPM_BR]

If the clear is hard as you said it, maybe after the 3000 wetsand it would need it a 5000 wetsand after.
When the clear is hard, I try to avoid wetsanding, since it becomes a pain to remove the marks afterward.
I would have started with wool and menz 300 instead of wetsanding, to test the waters, less agressive method first, and in my experience wool and menz 300 is a wetsand killer combo.
If the clear is hard, poorly re-shot and thin, wetsanding and the subsequent steps would be way too much material removal.
I would ditch CG compounds and go all the way Menzerna, or Meg's 100/101.
Best regards.

[Mike Phillips]

This being said there are now incredible holograms......


initial wet sand with trizact 3000 on rupes 21LRH for larger areas, griots & Porter cable for 3 inch westand






You never stated what you specifically used to remove your sanding marks.

You stated you used the RUPES BigFoot 21, Griot's and PC for sanding and these are all FREE-SPINNING ORBITAL Polishers


Did you use a rotary buffer?



:)

[Mike Phillips]

On a technical note...

If you did NOT use a rotary than the defects you are seeing are NOT holograms.


Holograms = The specific scratch pattern put into paint by a rotary buffer


Orbiatl polishers induce defects but they are not called holograms. This topic came up yesterday here,

DA Polisher holograms (https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/111441-da-polisher-holograms.html)




Orbital polishers induce micro-marring, which is also called DA Haze or Tick Marks. Meguiar's chemist coined the term Tick Marks.

All three of these words or terms mean the same thing.


Here's an article on this topic...


The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls, Micro-Marring, DA Haze & Tick Marks (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/28443-difference-between-rotary-buffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring-da-haze-tick-marks.html)



Below is just a portion from the above article,




Rotary Buffer Swirls
Also called: Holograms or Buffer Trails


Rotary Buffer Swirls, also called Holograms or Buffer Trails are circular scratches inflicted into paint by a rotary buffer and usually by the individual fibers that make up a wool cutting or polishing pad. The abrasives used in most compounds and polishes can also inflict swirls into a car's finish, thus anytime you're using a wool buffing pad and a compound or polish you now have two things potentially inflicting swirls into the paint.

Foam pads can also inflict rotary buffer swirls into paint depending upon the aggressiveness of the foam formula and the product used.

It is the direct drive rotating action of a rotary buffer that instills the circular pattern of scratches into paint usually in some type of zig-zag pattern that mimics the pattern in which the buffer was moved over the paint by the technician.

A rotary buffer is not evil because it and the buffing pads and compounds used with it impart swirls into paint, it's just a part of the cause and effect from using a direct drive tool that rotates a buffing pad in a single rotating direction.


Rotary Buffer Swirls usually show up when a car is exposed to bright light like the sun when its high overhead in the sky.

It's possible to use a rotary buffer and not instill rotary buffer swirl if the operator has a high skill level and uses quality pads and products. If rotary buffer swirls are instilled into paint, a true professional will do a follow-up process to remove them using less aggressive pads and products and sometimes switch to a different type of tool with a different mechanical polishing action.


The primary visual difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls and Cobweb Swirls is the rotary buffer imparts this identifiable pattern while Cobweb Swirls do not.

Examples of Rotary Buffer Swirls
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/69ss4.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous005.jpg


The zillions of swirls in the clear layer makes the paint look hazy and blocks your view of the black paint under the clear top coat. This reduces the darkness of the paint making the true black look gray.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/742/Horrendous006.jpg







Micro-Marring - Tick-Marks - DA-Haze

These three terms are pretty much the accepted terms for a scratch pattern left in some paints from the oscillating and rotating action from a compound or polish and a buffing pad when applied using a DA Polisher.

Unlike Cobweb swirls or Rotary Buffer Swirls, the scratch pattern instilled by a dual action polisher is made up of millions of tiny scratches, some are curved or circular but some are straight, like a small tick mark you would make with a pencil if you were keeping track of a count of some type.

Tick Marks are a sign that either the paint is on the soft side, so easily scratched or the pad and compound or polish you're using are too aggressive to finish out without leaving a mark.

In most cases Tick Marks can be removed by re-polishing with a different pad and product combination.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks01.jpg

http://www.autogeekonline.net/gallery/data/773/MicromarringTickMarks02.jpg



:)

[Mike Phillips]

When the abrasive technology you're using, (that would be compounds, polishes or cleaner/waxes), or the pad, is scratching the paint when using ANY orbital polisher the effect it has is it put micro-marring or micro-scratching into the paint.


Patterns
On dark colors or black paint you can sometimes see a PATTERN in the paint that mimics the direction you moved the polisher over the paint. This is NOT holograms but micro-marring or micro-scratching showing up in a pattern.

To date I don't know of a specific word to use to describe this pattern. At my last 3-day class we used the term

Shadow or Shadow Trails


And that's because some areas look darker and some look lighter kind of like a shadow on the paint.


Buffer Trails is a term also used for holograms so I don't know that this would be a good term. Regardless, holograms are a specific scratch pattern induced by a rotary buffer.


As to your problem with the paint...

Chances are good part of the problem is simply with the re-paint. Could be crappy paint or good paint that was not mixed well or some other factor that can be influenced by the person that mixed it and sprayed it.

If it is scratching easily then you need to change how you work on it to avoid scratching it.

I would avoid microfiber pads as fibers are FORM of ABRASIVE and each fiber will CUT THE PAINT - that means millions of cuts that show up as micro-marring.



Consider switching to different abrasive technology. I have not had good luck with CG v series products as I find the micro-mar.

Meguiar's M105 is popular but for some can also be hard to work with. M205 is known to cause micro-marring on softer paints.


Menzerna is a line of abrasive technology that I have found works on just about any paint, any pad, any tool and seem to work good if you're experienced or haze ZERO skills and experience.


I have a poll where the majority of people say technique is the number one most important factor when it comes to polishing paint. I forever will disagree. Abrasive technology is number one. Technique is ego-driven.


Also, it's possible due to the paint that this might be one of those jobs you wished you didn't take. Get some Menzerna polish, get some FLAT foam pads and you can probably fix this and get it to wax.



:)

[Mike Phillips]

Hi all and welcome to my nightmare.....




Since this was your first post to our forum....


Welcome to AutogeekOnline!


:welcome:

[Bones106]

Thanks for the input and information......greatly appreciated.

[Eric@CherryOnTop]

How old is the repaint? If this is fresh paint, less than 30 days old, then I think you are actually being too aggressive with your polishing. Like Mike, I am not a fan of the Chemical Guys line of polishes. Not bashing the company as they do make a few truly excellent products, I just feel their polishes don't cut the mustard (or the paint) the same way that other polishes do. I also agree with Mike that a rotary and wool is the fastest most efficient way to remove sanding marks without generating so much heat that you muck things up for yourself. Might even want to refine your sanding scratches down to 5000 grit before compounding. If it's fresh paint, it shouldn't take too much compounding to remove sanding marks.

Are you measuring thickness when you state that you will probably have to have the hood re-shot for the client?