Hazy/Cloudy paint with M201

[dmlking]

I need some insight guys!

After reading a ton about the use of Meguiars M101 and M201, I still can't figure out why I can't get a good shine with M201.
my objective is to compound and polish after painting with Kirker Ultra-Glo Single Stage. After working a small area once and then several times using the (pad prime => three pea-sized drops of M201 => cross-hatch with rotary polisher and white pad at 1000-1500 rpm) technique, I get a nice, uniform, cloudy finish. I'm simplifying by leaving M101 out of the discussion, because the same thing happens regardless of whether I precede the 201 with the 101, as I found on different test panels. I think that the attached photo illustrates pretty well. It shows a non-polished panel on the bottom with good gloss, and a polished panel on the top that is hazy/cloudy. I have wetted a small area of the polished panel to show that the gloss returns when wetted to appear similar to the gloss of the non-polished panel. Again, this is single stage; no clear coat.

Any thoughts on what could be going wrong, and what I might try to correct it?

Thanks in advance!
57406

[Evan.J]

Sounds like you have some soft paint in this car.

My question for you is what kind of white pad are you using (make &model)?

Can you bump down the speed even more like 800 or lower?

Factory paint or custom paint ?

Single stage or basecoat cleaercoat?


With the haze it sounds like to me the combo for the product, pad, and speed are too much causing the hazing.

[dmlking]

It is a Chemical Guys Hex Logic white pad.

It is fresh single stage paint, no clear coat.

I can go as low as 1000 RPM.

What would you try next?

[dlc95]

Have you tried a random orbital, like a Porter Cable 7424xp?

Changing the action of the pad might help..

M09 Swirl Remover 2.0 might help.

[Mike Phillips]

I need some insight guys!

After reading a ton about the use of Meguiars M101 and M201, I still can't figure out why I can't get a good shine with M201.

After working a small area once and then several times using the (pad prime => three pea-sized drops of M201 => cross-hatch with rotary polisher and white pad at 1000-1500 rpm) technique, I get a nice, uniform, cloudy finish.



From my own experience and that which of read of others in the blogosphere, compounds and polishes that are SMAT based, or super micro abrasive technology, don't work well on soft paint. The paint coulde soft right now because it's FRESH (you didn't say how old the new paint is?)

Or because it's single stage, the pigments affect the resin to make paint either soft, hard or somewhere in the middle. It's possible the pigments used in the Kirker Ultra-Glow Single Stage Paint make the paint resin soft?


If you're using a rotary then what you're seeing is holograms.

If you were to use an orbital what you would see is micro-marring.






Any thoughts on what could be going wrong, and what I might try to correct it?



If you're going to only use a rotary buffer then get a bottle of SONAX Perfect Finish and test it out. It is a polish specifically made for use with rotary buffers.


You could also try finishing out with one of the fine-cut Menzerna polishes. The SONAX and the Menzerna products are DAT or Diminishing Abrasive Technology and my experience with DAT type abrasive technology is that it finishes out great on a wide-spectrum of paint types.


I just read the copy on the below page for SONAX Perfect Finish and it states




when paired with the appropriate foam or microfiber pad on a dual-action or rotary polisher, is capable of impressing even the most discriminating enthusiast with its cutting and finishing abilities, eliminating the need for a multi-step system.



Here's the link,

Sonax Perfect Finish, best car polish (http://www.autogeek.net/sonax-perfect-finish.html)


My own experience is it works well with either type of polisher but I'm fairly confident that Rob McCrary from SONAX told me it's purposefully formulated for use with rotary buffers.

One thing for sure, I've been to the SONAX plant in Newberg, Germany and I'm very impressed with their R&D and the abrasive technology used in their products is all top shelf.




:)

[idriveblackcars]

Those hex logic white pads actually finish down very well. I forget who makes those for CG but it's their only pad I would use from them.

Never tried them with 201 but I have used them and M205 a bunch of times with amazing results!

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Those hex logic white pads actually finish down very well. I forget who makes those for CG but it's their only pad I would use from them.

Never tried them with 201 but I have used them and M205 a bunch of times with amazing results!
B&S makes the pads for CG. Yes, the white pad is closed cell foam and finishes very well on soft paint. As Mike said, M205 struggles on soft paint. Try a product like Scholl S30+ as it finishes VERY good on soft paint with the right pad. The B&S red uro-cell or LC crimson pad finishes very well on soft paint, too.

[dmlking]

Thanks Mike and others. My next try is going to be Sonax Perfect Finish and a Sonax green pad.

Related question: Will the cure time of the paint radically affect my ability to get a good gloss with polish? In other words, is there a cure time (e.g. a month) beyond which it will be nearly impossible to get a good polish with no micro marring ? Or, doesn't the resulting paint hardness merely cause slower material removal?

[mwoywod]

B&S makes the pads for CG. Yes, the white pad is closed cell foam and finishes very well on soft paint. As Mike said, M205 struggles on soft paint. Try a product like Scholl S30+ as it finishes VERY good on soft paint with the right pad. The B&S red uro-cell or LC crimson pad finishes very well on soft paint, too.

I agree completely. I think the "haze" in the paint isn't caused by the polish or compound scouring the surface, but from the emulsions meguiars uses absorbing into the surface. On softer "sticky" paint the trade secret oils in meguiars products absorbs into the paint's pores creating a hazy finish. While the best line of products that seems to work EXCEPTIONALLY on these difficult paints is the Scholl Concepts line (S30+, S20 Black, S3 Gold) if you would prefer to test the "sticky" paint theory you could try using HD Polish+ which is the only other product I've found that performs at that level on extremely soft paint.

Also, Based on the picture it appears there are a few pigtails (I assume they were the result of machine sanding with Trizact 1500grit sanding discs) but based on the amount of nibs and peel I see in the photo, it certainly wouldn't hurt to go back over everything with 3000 grit Trizact or 3000 Mirka Abralon before you spend a day or two compounding and polishing.

75% of the cars I work on are single stage repaints so even though I don't have anywhere near the knowledge of alot of these guys (especially mike) sanding repainted classic cars, muscle cars, and hot rods is my bread and butter. Hope this helps. Best regards

[Junior72141]

Related question: Will the cure time of the paint radically affect my ability to get a good gloss with polish? In other words, is there a cure time (e.g. a month) beyond which it will be nearly impossible to get a good polish with no micro marring ? Or, doesn't the resulting paint hardness merely cause slower material removal?

According to Kirka's Tech Sheet for Ultra-Glo.


POLISH:
In single stage applications: After eight (8) hours dry time, ULTRA GLO may be sanded with 1500 grit or finer
to abrade surface and / or remove dust nibs and other imperfections such as orange peel, then with 2000 grit
or finer to remove 1500 grit scratches.

Great care should be taken when sanding metallic colors. Only abrade surface lightly. Do not cut too deep into film, as aluminum flake rests just beneath surface.

Use a wool pad or foam pad in combination with a high quality finishing compound, following material manufacturer’s instructions. Follow with a high quality finishing glaze applied either by hand, or variable speed buffer.

I would try to narrow down the cause and do a small spot by hand to see if it's the machine/speed/pressure combination.

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks Mike and others. My next try is going to be Sonax Perfect Finish and a Sonax green pad.

[/quoate]

Please update this thread with how the SONAX Perfect Finish works with the rotary buffer and this paint.



[QUOTE=dmlking;1495068]

Related question:

Will the cure time of the paint radically affect my ability to get a good gloss with polish?

In other words, is there a cure time (e.g. a month) beyond which it will be nearly impossible to get a good polish with no micro marring ?

Or, doesn't the resulting paint hardness merely cause slower material removal?




My experience is after some time goes by and the fresh paint reaches full cure and hardness that the shine and gloss you create will be easier to achieve and last over time.



:)

[mdrees]

I've had similar experience with M201 and M101 combination on softer paints. They are definitely my go-to product for very hard clear coat correction as they tend to be more aggressive. I also agree with Mike on Sonax products - they stack up well against Menzerna and don't have the strong smell or dusting issues. I've started to keep an inventory of multiple products and specific situations (paint) which they work best on.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Is there such a thing as M201?

[dcjredline]

Is there such a thing as M201?

Yeah, I have been on the Meguiar's site and cannot find any thing about M201. Can anyone fill us in?

[mwoywod]

Yeah, I have been on the Meguiar's site and cannot find any thing about M201. Can anyone fill us in?

I assumed he was referring to m205 but now that I think of it, maybe he is using 301 finishing wax? There definitely isn't a m201 polish