Anyone work in a body shop or very knowledgeable with auto painting?

[AuroraDetailing]

I'm not ready to get the work done just yet, and still on the road working, but just wanted to get some information on a plan of action for when I get back home. I bought a 2016 TItan XD a couple months ago, and the more I look at it, the more the paint is bothering me. I've done quite a bit of professional detailing in the past, and the orange peel on this paint is the worst I've ever seen out of the factory. I've even looked at other ones on the lot and they are the same. I don't think there is enough wrong with it to try to get warranty work out of it though. I would like to wet sand it, but being a factory clear, I don't think it'll handle the depth I would need to go. I've been considering getting an additional clear coat sprayed on, which will most likely be smoother just by doing that, but then I could wet sand it to a glass finish. What I'm wondering is if I can just have it masked off to have the clear sprayed without any having any flash lines. I know a taped off paint job is the cheapest way to go, but you can usually see the edges afterwards or it looks dry-sprayed in some nooks and cranies like between the bumper and bed of the truck. I really don't want to pay out the butt to do what a quality paint job costs just so I can have shinier paint, but if it's just a clear coat I'm guessing it wouldn't be as critical. I don't need any door jams or under the hood done or anything like that. I only plan on wet sanding the major outer surfaces, probably not going to bother with the A-pillars and under the rear window. So what I'm wanting to know is if spraying a clear with just masking off the trim and other stuff would still result in a factory look without any problems around the edging or an over spray look in the door jams. I know it probably wouldn't be that noticeable, but I'm a detailer, and I'll notice stuff like that.

Another question I have is about total cure time. In the past, I generally don't apply any coatings to any fresh painted body work until 60 days has passed. I don't know all the details of why other than something about out gassing of the paint, but I was just taught that way. Would it be any different for just a clear coat? If it's just a clear coat, and not layers of color curing through a layer of clear, would the stand off time be less?

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Congrats on the new truck. Interesting to see a 1/2ton offered with a Diesel. Hopefully more manufactures follow suit.

Anyhow, have you taken any thickness readings with a PTG? This would be the first step in determining on where to go IMO.

If you go with adding another coat of clear, the proper way to accomplish this is to remove/disassemble as much as possible to include removing trim etc and then having the clear added. If not then you will surely have an edge where the paint meets the tape line and the tape is pulled away. Also if you don't tape off the door crevices, where the door is closed you will have clear overspray pushed back into the door jambs.

Cure time all comes down to the tools you have on hand. Do you have a proper booth to paint the vehicle in and that you can bake the clear? Or are you just painting in a makeshift booth? Another thing that influences cure time is the weather conditions. Are you in a hot dry location such as a desert or in an area with lots of humidity. Also the ratio's at which the clear is mixed, what level speed hardener is added as well as the quality of clear is being used such as PPG, Dupont, or a low end product such as NAPA paint.

IMO, if you want to reduce the texture found on the vehicle you are better off by performing damp sanding with 3K & 5K foam backed sand paper and then polishing the paint out to a high standard and applying a paint coating to help add/protect what you have removed.

BTW, I run a body shop.

[Mike Phillips]

I'm not ready to get the work done just yet, and still on the road working, but just wanted to get some information on a plan of action for when I get back home.

I bought a 2016 TItan XD a couple months ago, and the more I look at it, the more the paint is bothering me. I've done quite a bit of professional detailing in the past, and the orange peel on this paint is the worst I've ever seen out of the factory. I've even looked at other ones on the lot and they are the same. I don't think there is enough wrong with it to try to get warranty work out of it though.

I would like to wet sand it, but being a factory clear, I don't think it'll handle the depth I would need to go.

I've been considering getting an additional clear coat sprayed on, which will most likely be smoother just by doing that, but then I could wet sand it to a glass finish.


What I'm wondering is if I can just have it masked off to have the clear sprayed without any having any flash lines. I know a taped off paint job is the cheapest way to go, but you can usually see the edges afterwards or it looks dry-sprayed in some nooks and cranies like between the bumper and bed of the truck.

I really don't want to pay out the butt to do what a quality paint job costs just so I can have shinier paint, but if it's just a clear coat I'm guessing it wouldn't be as critical.





Back in 2004 I asked the shop in Irvine, California that painted all our demo hoods at Meguiar's what it would cost to simply spray more clearcoat paint onto our 2004 Honda Passport. I had a great relationship with the guys at this bodyshop.

I felt the same way you feel. I had just purchased the Honda Passport brand new (black), and being a Meguiar's employee, the primary instructor for all their Detailing 101 and 102 classes, I wanted a perfect finish on my brand new car. The idea being, after they sprayed the extra clearcoat paint I would wet sand the paint flat and then buff it out to a show car finish.

Here's what they told me,

Even being a brand new car with NO DENTS no rust no anything, it was in perfect condition, IF they were to take on the project it would be treated just like getting a normal paint job and the minimum cost would be around $3000.00

It gets more complicated because scuffing the clear enough for a quality paint job and NOT scuffing or sanding through the factory clear to the basecoat would be risky at some point over this large SUV. If this were to happen the cost would go up. Then there's the warranty. Any reputable shop will want to sand to the basecoat and below if they're going to warranty it. So what sounds like a real simple, cheap project simply is not the case.

I'd highly recommend that you go to a few body shops, tell them what you want them to do and then see if they'll even take on the project and if they will, how much?

My guess is you'll find two things out,

1. Like I described above, any "reputable shop" will want to warranty their work or they won't take the job and if they warranty the job they're going to treat it like a normal paint job and the minimum cost will be in the $3000.00+ range. SUVs are more due to the roof and the roof racks as prepping and painting these areas is a pain and requires more time, labor and materials. (Think about getting up and down on scaffolding)

2. You might find a cheapo body shop that will take on the project but you get what you pay for.


Your idea is kind of common, I've met a lot of guys that after buying a brand new Corvette come up with this same idea. In fact I've answered this same question multiple times in my life.






Another question I have is about total cure time. In the past, I generally don't apply any coatings to any fresh painted body work until 60 days has passed. I don't know all the details of why other than something about out gassing of the paint, but I was just taught that way. Would it be any different for just a clear coat? If it's just a clear coat, and not layers of color curing through a layer of clear, would the stand off time be less?



There's not a single paint manufacturer that I know of that recommend sealing their paint system until after 30 days air cure.

I've never seen a modern basecoat/clearcoat paint job fail because it was sealed too soon. That said, when this question comes up I always say,

What's the hurry?

Forum guys posting under nicknames will mostly say go for it and I always think this is funny considering it's not their car, their brand new paint job or their money.


Have some fun, take your truck to a few body shops, tell them what you want and the come back here and update this thread with what you find out for everyone that will have your same question in to the future.

[AuroraDetailing]

Appreciate the replies. That's the exact info I was looking for and what I was worried about. It's not that worth it to me to spend that much, and I'm not going to risk a cheapo job being done. I don't have a paint thickness gauge, but I'm not sure how well it would work on some of the areas because of how bad the orange peel is. I can't tell if it's from the color coat, clear, or both. I'll try to get some pics.

The first car I wet sanded was actually a Corvette, I think a 2008. I was just learning back then and going under the instruction of my buddy. I was there for 12 hours, and my buddy ended up staying fit 16 hours. The orange peel wasn't even that bad on that car. What I would have complained about more was the fiberglass texture showing through the paint on the roof.

[Mike Phillips]

The first car I wet sanded was actually a Corvette, I think a 2008. I was just learning back then and going under the instruction of my buddy. I was there for 12 hours, and my buddy ended up staying fit 16 hours.





A wet sanding project is time intensive and the only way a person learns this is by doing it.

To do it right is also a tick on the costly side if you're going to use the best products, like 3M Trizact #3000 and #5000 sanding discs, compounds that use great abrasive technology and quality tools for AFTER the rotary buffer step.

I'm pretty sure I'm the first guy to ever capture the entire process from start to finish in a time lapse video.

Note I didn't say I'm the first guy to wet sand cut and buff a car, just the first guy to capture the entire process via time-lapse photography.

I document the entire process, tools, pads, etc I used in this thread,


How to wet sand a car - Time Lapse Video (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/70997-how-wet-sand-car-video.html)



From start to finish I did this 1964 Chevy Malibu Convertible in 12 hours and that's with no breaks. In the above article I also say that I don't recommend for others to try to do this much work in this little time. I simply had no choice.






The orange peel wasn't even that bad on that car.



If you feel comfortable with your skills and experience and you have the tools, one option would be to machine sand the paint, ONLY THE MAJOR FLAT PANELS - that is don't try to sand 2 millimeters away from each edge or body line, using 3M Trizact #5000.

This will knock down the tops of the orange peel while removing very little clearcoat and it will be VERY easy for you to buff and remove 100% of the sanding marks.

You could also take your time and just do a panel a weekend.


Me? I wouldn't do it. I just drive it.

Factory clearcoats are thin. In fact I have an article on this,

Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/87410-clearcoats-thin-mike-phillips.html)



:)



All the UV protection for the entire matrix of paint is in the clear layer of paint. The more clear you remove the less UV protection there will be to protect the paint from clearcoat failure over the service life of the car.




:)

[Mike Phillips]

I bought a 2016 TItan XD a couple months ago,





Not that the below has anything to do with our Titan.... here's a Titan Richard Lin and I buffed out back in 2006 when I was still at Meguiar's.


Wild Paint Job - Swirl Removal - Cover of Trukin Magazine (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/off-topic/23747-wild-paint-job-swirl-removal-cover-trukin-magazine.html)

http://www.showcargarage.com/gallery/files/1/TruckinMagCover.jpg


This truck was filled with sanding marks and wool pad and compound swirls when we got to it. We worked it over pretty good with our rotary buffers and the hit it with the dual action polisher using the same techniques we show in our how-to DVD and it came out like very clear and glossy.

Before
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Titan007.jpg

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2TitanBefore003.jpg

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2TitanBefore003c.jpg

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2TitanBefore004.jpg

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2TitanBefore004c.jpg




After
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Titan001.jpg

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/2Titan002.jpg



Too bad we get no mention in the article. Sad thing about detailing, the detailer is the one who will make or break the painter's work yet the painter is the one who usually gets all the credit.

http://www.showcargarage.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

[rlmccarty2000]

That's because detailers make it look so easy and painters think they are creating art. Lol

[RaskyR1]

Based on all the great info already posted above have you considered hitting it lightly with some Denim pads to reduce texture and getting it to a more satisfactory level?

[AuroraDetailing]

Thanks for the reply Mike. I have read your article on wet sanding, which is what made me not want to wet sand the factory clear. I think the orange peel is so bad that any light wet sanding isn't going to be worth the risk because it'll still be there pretty heavy. There are parts in the corners where it even looks more like it's been dry sprayed more than it is orange peel. I don't know if dry sprayed is the proper term, but basically it looks like the clear wasn't put on heavy enough, or it dried too much before contacting the surface. I might just have to deal with it and do what I can with polishing and coatings. Here are some pics I took this morning. Might need to zoom in on the pics to really see how bad it is.

49317
49318
49319
49320

[AuroraDetailing]

Just saw a post on the Titan forum I go on where someone mentioned they have a detailer friend that says that this texture signifies there is a good amount of clear and great for wet sanding. I'm guessing if I don't go below the valleys, it wouldn't get any thinner than the valleys already are anyway.

[RaskyR1]

Just saw a post on the Titan forum I go on where someone mentioned they have a detailer friend that says that this texture signifies there is a good amount of clear and great for wet sanding. I'm guessing if I don't go below the valleys, it wouldn't get any thinner than the valleys already are anyway.

That's very poor advice IMO.

[Bobby B.]

You could always try the CarPro Velvet Orange Peel Removal Pads. CarPro Velvet Orange Peel Removal Pad, orange peel removal paint (http://www.autogeek.net/orange-peel-removal-pad.html)

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

That's very poor advice IMO.

Agreed.

[AuroraDetailing]

I didn't like it either. This was the actual quote "A good friend of mine who is a detailer said it's perfect. Lots of clear coat to cut to make it look smooth."

Am I being too picky or is that an unreasonable amount of orange peel on a $60k truck? It's so rough above the tail lights that a clay bar won't even go over it properly.

[vobro]

I didn't like it either. This was the actual quote "A good friend of mine who is a detailer said it's perfect. Lots of clear coat to cut to make it look smooth."

Am I being too picky or is that an unreasonable amount of orange peel on a $60k truck? It's so rough above the tail lights that a clay bar won't even go over it properly.
Yes you are to picky, every car with factory paint has orange peel and getting worse. The 60k issue is nil, that truck goes in the same booth as an entry level truck. I'd rather live with the peel that completely hack a new truck by taping and spraying clear as the orange peel was there when you bought it