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  1. #31
    Super Member acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post
    Is the primary use of Diamond Surface Coating to go on top of other coatings or as a stand alone? Seeing the product page has a stated life of up to 3 years on paint I was thinking it would be a great stand alone product. It's expensive but seems more versatility and easier to use them other coatings such as CQuartz. Thoughts?
    Primary use of Paint and Surface Coatings are as LSPs. But any coating can probably be used on other coatings with some success, and while that may not make practical or economical sense with most brands, PBL seems to work really well with itself, the Surface coating is not finicky (hence being “surface” that can be applied to paint, glass, wheel, trim, etc.) and that seems to translate into excelling as a topper on other PBL coatings. It almost acts as a coating lite in my opinion. It may not have the full longevity of the dedicated PBL coatings, but can be used as standalone or topper and won’t be too picky when applying.

  2. #32
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    Is the primary use of Diamond Surface Coating to go on top of other coatings or as a stand alone?
    Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface Coating, (6 words in the name not including the number 850), is a standalone or dedicated coating. You can use it by itself or as a topper over the PBLK Diamond Paint Coating. My guess is it will work over most any coating.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    Seeing the product page has a stated life of up to 3 years on paint I was thinking it would be a great stand alone product.
    The host of my Powel, Ohio class applied this to his Corvette in 2013 and he told me it's still on their today.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    It's expensive but seems more versatility and easier to use them other coatings such as CQuartz. Thoughts?
    What I like about it is the versatility. After I prep a car I apply to paint, glass and all the plastic on the headlights and taillights.




    Quote Originally Posted by Thomkirby View Post

    I followed Mike suggestions with both Diamond Paint Coating and then used the Diamond Surface Coating as the topper on my pearl white Lexus. Just the other night under the parking lot lights the shine was remarkable even though it has a slight road film from some recent rains. That combination seems to stay slick better than my Carpro SKIN over the PPF on the hood. I might try the Diamond Surface Coating over SKIN to see if that will improve. The more I try the PBL Diamond products I am impressed.
    Thank you for sharing your experience Kirby.




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  4. #33
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    I haven't had any luck getting Pinnacle to answer my questions (disappointed in their customer service to be honest).

    I'm posting here in the hopes of getting answers.

    "I wanted a bit of technical info that isn’t published on your site related to Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface Coating

    What material is used in this product and at what percentage? Sio2 perhaps?

    I see on painted surfaces you say this will last up to 3 years, under what condition and car do you think it would reach this 3 year mark?

    What are the recommended working temperatures?

    What is the ph range of chemicals it can resist?

    Is it recommended to apply more then one coat? If so how long should one wait between coats?"

    Thanks! I have a bottle of this and will be trying it soon.

    Paul

  5. #34
    Super Member acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post
    I haven't had any luck getting Pinnacle to answer my questions (disappointed in their customer service to be honest).

    I'm posting here in the hopes of getting answers.

    "I wanted a bit of technical info that isn’t published on your site related to Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface Coating

    What material is used in this product and at what percentage? Sio2 perhaps?

    I see on painted surfaces you say this will last up to 3 years, under what condition and car do you think it would reach this 3 year mark?

    What are the recommended working temperatures?

    What is the ph range of chemicals it can resist?

    Is it recommended to apply more then one coat? If so how long should one wait between coats?"

    Thanks! I have a bottle of this and will be trying it soon.

    Paul
    I think they are SiO2 coatings plus polymers. They advertise as nano-glass which to me, means SiO2. You’ll only get 3 years on a garage queen in my opinion. I would guess more like 12-18 months on a daily in good weather. There are searchable posts of people’s experiences. But I think the Surface Coating lasts less than the dedicated coatings. It will likely last the least amount of time on wheels (high heat) and glass where wipers scrape (friction).

    Given that the Wheel Coating directions mention applying a second coat after 24 hours for uniform coverage, I think it’s safe to assume this applies to all.

    General working temperatures for coatings would be 55-80F degrees (my guess under normal to light humid conditions). But It wouldn’t surprise me if you had success applying in temps under 55F since this is a friendly coating and I myself have had success with glass and coating in my garage during cold weather (maybe 45-50F?).

    Can’t help you with pH range resistance, and most my answers above are from my hobby experiences with PBL coatings, and I don’t guarantee to be correct about SiO2 and my experiences in Pennsylvania may differ from others’ elsewhere.

  6. #35
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Can the PBL Surface Coating be applied over a coated car that has had Hydro blue used?

    Sorry if this has been previously answered I didn’t see it.

  7. #36
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    I haven't had any luck getting Pinnacle to answer my questions (disappointed in their customer service to be honest).
    You're communicating with customer service rep where customer service means helping you with your order, not breaking down the chemical composition of a product.



    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    I'm posting here in the hopes of getting answers.

    "I wanted a bit of technical info that isn’t published on your site related to Pinnacle Black Label Diamond Surface Coating

    What material is used in this product and at what percentage? Sio2 perhaps?

    I see on painted surfaces you say this will last up to 3 years, under what condition and car do you think it would reach this 3 year mark?

    What are the recommended working temperatures?

    What is the ph range of chemicals it can resist?

    Is it recommended to apply more then one coat? If so how long should one wait between coats?"

    Thanks! I have a bottle of this and will be trying it soon.

    Paul

    Great questions Paul. I can help you with a few....



    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    What material is used in this product and at what percentage? Sio2 perhaps?
    I don't know this information and I doubt if I were to ask for it - it would be provided.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    I see on painted surfaces you say this will last up to 3 years, under what condition and car do you think it would reach this 3 year mark?
    This question about how long ANY type or brand of product will last comes up so often I wrote an article to answer the question and it really comes down to common sense.

    How long will a ceramic coating last on my car?


    If you click on the above link, you'll see I provided lots of common sense information and I formatted the information in an easy to read manner along with pictures and links to even MORE information.


    I also just posted to this thread on our forum explaining how a forum, (this thin we're all reading on and typing on - excels at sharing information as compared to a Facebook Group.

    Facebook Detailing group


    But what do I know, everyone tells me forums are dead. Plus - I'm not a YouTube Influencer, so take ANYTHING I say with a cyber grain of salt.



    But hopefully - you'll find the help I provide here to be as good or better than you received anywhere else.



    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    What are the recommended working temperatures?
    The answer to this is the answer to applying any car care product and that is normal or moderate temperatures. This can be a range between 60 degrees to 75 degrees.

    When temperatures are on the extreme side of cold or hot then application and removal of ANY product becomes more difficult.

    I think I have an article on this topic too.... but... it's not on a Facebook Group, it's on a forum from the year 2012.

    What temperature ranges are best for applying compounds, polishes, waxes and paint sealants





    This is one year after my first article on applying coatings. So when I wrote the title, I didn't include the word COATINGS because it wasn't fully ingrained in my brain let alone know to the unwashed masses.

    Here's my first coating article - dated September 22nd, 2011


    1977 Can Am Corvette - Modeled by Amy and Janna - Pictures and Video!





    Probably not the FIRST text and pictures article on coatings BUT if anyone can find an article that's OLDER - please included it in a reply below.



    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    What is the ph range of chemicals it can resist?
    I don't know this answer either but it's a quality product so it's probably in the "average range" for most quality similar products.

    If you just do normal things in life, like wash your car and drive it - then it shouldn't be a concern what the pH range is for any thing you apply to your car's exterior.

    If you live in a place where some kind of extreme low or extreme high pH contaminant is going to contaminate your car's exterior, then I would be more worried about "living" there then my car.



    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    Is it recommended to apply more then one coat? If so how long should one wait between coats?"
    I don't remember if the Pinnacle website or any Pinnacle literature has this recommendation. But I know enough about this topic to be dangerous.

    First - I use this product and I really like it. I wish it wasn't so expensive. It makes me NOT want to recommend it because I think the price will turn a lot of people off. But - I'm not a marketing guy, I'm just a how-to guy.

    In the history of waxing cars, just like the directions on a bottle of hair shampoo, where the directions tell you,

    Wash, rinse repeat

    That's to make you use up your hair shampoo faster and then buy another bottle.

    In the car wax world, it is true that a lot of the Dinosaur wax companies would give you the same advice, that is apply 2 coats of wax. The idea being, you would use up the product faster but also by applying 2 coats of car wax, you pretty much insure every millimeter of car paint was protected. And this is in part because the average car owner is NOT talented at applying car wax to their car so by applying 2 coats, the person is VERY likely to have done a

    Good job


    With most product, this includes car waxes, synthetic paint sealants and YES coatings, here's the issue,

    The carrying agents, be they a petroleum solvent, water, aerosol, or something else, they are either strong enough to both hold the protection ingredients in an emulsion (so you can use the stuff), and also dissolve themselves with a secondary application.

    If the carrying agents are strong enough to dissolve themselves, that is dissolve the application you just applied, this means when you apply a second coat, you don't LAYER a second coat over the first coat, you dissolve the first coat into the second coat and end up with ONE coat and probably a UNIFORM layer over the entire car. (kind of the goal)


    Don't even get me going on the topic of layering. I'm a veteran of the Zaino vs NXT Wax Wars.


    Now if the manufacture STATES that their product can be layered, this means one of two things,

    1: They're lying.

    2: The chemist that created and formulated the product has figure out how to suspend the protection ingredients in an carrying agent that won't dissolve the first coat. This would also mean, (if it's the real deal), that there's a LOT of chemistry behind the formula and the carrying agents are likely the opposite of strong or hot.


    I think it's easy for a company to say you can layer a product, I think it's hard for the consumer to know if they really applied a second layer over the top of a SOLIDIFIED first layer without DISRUPTING it.

    A note to all companies, as information becomes more accessible to the average person via this wonderful little gem we call the Internet, be very careful about making claims. Practice honesty and your customers will reward you. And if you want to sell a product that truly layers, then simply pony up to the chemistry table and offer a product that truly layers.


    Me?

    I do a really good job of applying a SINGLE APPLICATION of ANY PRODUCT and call it good. I then move on in life. I enjoy the car. I enjoy how the car looks. I take comfort in that I chose a good product, applied according to the directions and trust it will do what the manufacture claims it will do.


    Chances are I'm the kind of person that will "do something" to my car's appearance within a year or so versus the type of person that will try to apply something and then let her go for 3 or 4 year of neglect.

    I'm also NOT a fan of multi-year coatings or multi-year anything and I share why here,


    The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

    Note: There's a LOT of deep info in the article above, it's really not something to scan.


    I keep this coating on my wife's Honda HR-V and I use a one-step cleaner/wax on my own SUV. It's faster and easier for me to maintain my SUV than it is my wife's SUV and because it's faster and easier I'm more likely to do it - because it's fast and easy.




    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post

    Thanks! I have a bottle of this and will be trying it soon.

    Well.... I hope I helped at least a little. Let me share this with you to so you'll feel assured.

    First - best results with the PBL Surface Coating are the normal steps,

    1. Wash and dry
    2. Clay if needed
    3. Machine polish paint, glass and plastic
    4. Chemically strip the paint, glass and plastic
    5. Apply the PBL Surface Coating like I show in the first post of this thread.



    Application --> Super Simple and Fast
    I take a Forrest Green Edgeless Microfiber Towel and cut a quarter section out of it. I put on my nitrile gloves. I mist a little to one side of the towel and a little onto the surface I'm coating. Spread around, wait for about 15 seconds and wipe the area with a clean microfiber towel







    On the topic of step 3 above, machine polishing

    If nothing else, use any quality fine cut polish with a foam polishing pad and any orbital polisher. This will remove any light swirls and scratches but also completely strip off any previously applied waxes, sealant and also road film. I talk about road film in the article above on my case against multi-year ceramic coatings. Machine polishing is MACHINE CLEANING. You will insure all surfaces are clean and prepared to accept the coating.


    Here's the best things I like about the PBL Surface Coating....

    The paint will feel SLIPPERY

    Most coatings leave the paint feeling rubbery. I will NOT use coatings that make my car's paint feel rubbery. You'll notice it the first time you try to wipe the paint with ANYTHING. Your towel, be it a microfiber towel or a drying chamois - will stick to the paint. It certainly will not GLIDE over the surface.

    and these things too....

    It will LOOK GREAT

    It will have great gloss and shine.

    It will wash and dry fast!

    It will dang near wash clean in a hard rain

    It will last at least a year as long as you don't do stupid stuff.


    That is, wash it like I show here,


    How to safely wash a ceramic coated car by Mike Phillips - Traditional Hose & Bucket Approach





    Hope the above all helps.... it took me about 35 minutes to type it all out and I could have NEVER shared the above information on a Facebook Group. It just doesn't work for sharing info.




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  9. #37
    Mike Phillips
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    And.... I love answering questions and helping where I can... but sometimes I simply don't have the answer and don't have access to the information. This is usually in the context of the chemistry of a product.

    In these cases, I fall back on some sage advice give to me by a friend named John Dillon. In fact, it was important enough to me to create an article for the sage advice he shared with me years ago....

    A great quote from John Dillon - When the topic of what's in the bottle comes up, simply put the focus on the performance of the product


    Thanks John....



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  11. #38
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Mike first and foremost thanks for taking all the time to share your knowledge and experience with me, or shall I say wisdom?

    I get your jabs about YouTube and Facebook. Facebook is not the place to share detailed info for sure. YouTube yes but in video form only it can be hard to get all the details.

    Related to my expected customer service and technical info I guess I'm spoiled by CarPro. They give you so much detail about all aspects of the products (technical, application, maintenance, etc).

    I'm an engineer so details matter to me. My wife would says I'm a little crazy about details.

    I finally heard from Pinnacle and this is what I've learned.

    1) 3 year longevity is for garage kept barely driven cars.
    2) Application temp range is 50-90f.
    3) The recommend ph neutral only care products for obvious reasons. Nothing was provided on it's ph resistance. (For example CarPro CQuartz says ph 3-11)
    4) A second coat isn't needed but they do recommend topping with a carnauba wax after 24 hours. This suggests to me top it with whatever product you like.

    I also requested the SDS (which I had to supply proof of purchase to get) and learned the following.

    The product is 45-50% propan-2-ol, isopropyl alcohol, isopropanol and 40.5-47.5% octamethylcyclotetrasiloxane.

    If you look up octamethylcyclotetrasiloxane you'll see this is the solids of the coating itself. My guess is this is the highest % of solids they could use and make the product spray-able.

    This is the highest % of solids in a spray product I've see (previous highest is Tac Systems product at 20%). Compare this to the normal 50-80% in non-spray coatings.


    Related to your rubbery coating comment, is this why my CQuartz coated car isn't very sticky when trying to wipe a quick detailer off and caused my microfiber to lint if I don't use a ton of product?

    The linting drives me nuts as I expect my towel to glide across the surface.

    Thanks again,
    Paul

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  13. #39
    Super Member acuRAS82's Avatar
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    ^^ paulgyro, thank you for following up with the communication results. Much respect to Pinnacle for getting back with this.

    I wonder what percentages of the siloxane that the Paint, Wheel and Glass Coatings use? Could be more or on the high end of the 40.5-47.5%.
    I guessed above in post #34 that it was a SiO2 coating. I have seen multiple threads on the chemistry of siloxane vs SiO2 and while I don’t understand it all, I generally regard/simplify them as similar alternatives in the coating game. Siloxane may or may not be used in some liquids to ultimately solidify as SiO2 (I think maybe?).
    Clearly I’m not a chemist but IGL EcoCoat Wax and Ecoshine Enhancer use this as their main ingredient and so does a very well-renowned spray topper not sold here.

  14. #40
    Super Member Bruno Soares's Avatar
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    Re: Coated under 15 minutes using PBL Surface Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by paulgyro View Post
    Related to your rubbery coating comment, is this why my CQuartz coated car is very sticky when trying to wipe a quick detailer off and caused my microfiber to lint if I don't use a ton of product?

    The linting drives me nuts as I expect my towel to glide across the surface.

    Thanks again,
    Paul
    CQuartz feels much different when Gliss is applied over it. The paint then feels slick and more hydrophobic. I don't know if you're willing to now put that on top due to how complicated it can be but next time you coat with CQuartz make sure to use Gliss as well.
    Bruno Soares


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