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  1. #31
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Phillips@Autogeek View Post
    Thanks Bill....






    Just a drop or two for a 32 ounce spray bottle of water. You want just enough soap to provide lubrication plus anit-loading of the disc with paint particles but you don't want to create suds as you sand.






    Glad it helps....


    For everyone reading this into the future, keep in mind when I wrote this article and used this technique products like the 3M #3000 and #5000 Trizact Sanding Discs had NOT been invented yet.


    Dampsanding with 3" Griot's Garage Mini Polisher


    Griot's 3" Mini Polisher works great as a 3" Dampsander



    Nor had the Rupes TA50 been introduced yet.

    Rupes TA50 Mini Sander - First look...

    Rupes TA50 Removing RIDS

    Precision Buffing with the Rupes TA50 - It doesn't get any better than this!

    Rupes TA50 Mini Sander with Meguiar's Xtra Cut MF Discs in action!




    As I pointed out in another thread; the Trizact is an awesome solution that carries less risk than feather sanding. Having said that, there are still times were the feather sanding technique is better suited because you can even further isolate the defect.

    Even using a sun gun I don't often see RIDS looking directly at the finish on my Sterling Gray Metallic paint. Rather it requires looking at an off axis angle to spot them.

    The question I have is how do you know how far to go? I don't own a paint meter and wouldn't know how to interpret the results. I know a big part of this is "experience" but can you elaborate any further on how you judge when to stop?

  2. #32
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by jbmeyer13 View Post

    As I pointed out in another thread; the Trizact is an awesome solution that carries less risk than feather sanding. Having said that, there are still times were the feather sanding technique is better suited because you can even further isolate the defect.
    Good point and just to add... when I wrote the original article and did the work on the BMW

    • Trizact had not been invented yet.

    • The Griot's Garage 3" Mini Polisher that I use and show for a machine sander had not been introduced to the market yet.

    • The RUPES TA50 had not been invented yet.


    So cutting up postage stamp size pieces of sandpaper and finger sanding with them was what we had to work with so that's what I used and shared in the article.

    :D


    Quote Originally Posted by jbmeyer13 View Post

    Even using a sun gun I don't often see RIDS looking directly at the finish on my Sterling Gray Metallic paint. Rather it requires looking at an off axis angle to spot them.
    I never use the Sun Gun, in fact when it was introduced to the market I had one to use at Meguiar's and before a class I would remove it from the garage and stick it in my office because somehow it amazingly turned EVERYONE into a PAINT EXPERT.




    Quote Originally Posted by jbmeyer13 View Post

    The question I have is how do you know how far to go?
    I don't own a paint meter and wouldn't know how to interpret the results. I know a big part of this is "experience" but can you elaborate any further on how you judge when to stop?

    In my first how-to detailing book I state to keep it real. Don't try to put and maintain a 100 percent defect free finish on a daily driver.

    Get an estimate from the best body shop around for how much they will charge you to repaint the panel you're working on and let them know your standards are perfection in every aspect, that is the paint, the sanding the end results and then let that price be your guide as to how willing you are to buff and buff and buff to remove any random, isolated deeper scratches.

    What I tell people in my 3-day detailing class is sometimes it's better (and safer) to improve a scratch and live with it than it is to try to 100 percent to to remove the scratch and have one of the whoops! experiences.

    I've seen a lot a people go to far in my life and words cannot describe the heart sinking feeling that overcomes them when they find out they've buffed through the clear layer of paint.


    Here's a tip and one I JUST used in the garage on a black Mercedes-Benz.

    I compounded the trunk lid to remove the swirls and scratches using Wolfgang Uber Compound with a Lake Country Orange Hybrid Foam Cutting pad. I made 8 thorough section passes as defined in my how-to book for using the Flex 3401.

    After buffing and wiping off the residue there were a few RIDS remaining.

    I rebuffed these areas one more time focusing the compounding on just the scratches and after 4-5 more passes stopped buffing and wiped the residue off.

    One patch of RIDS were removed.

    The deeper RIDS in another area remained as I knew they would and I told the owner in my experience they were too deep to risk trying to remove.


    Mike Phillips
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  3. #33

    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    is it just me or did i miss what RIDS and LSP stand for?

  4. #34
    Director of Training Mike Phillips's Avatar
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedsGarage View Post

    is it just me or did i miss what RIDS and LSP stand for?

    This some of the lingo used in the online detailing discussion forum world that has also creeped into mainstream.

    I"m the guy that coined these terms so I guess I'm as good as anyone to define them....


    RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches

    LSP = Last Step Product
    And here's my articles that explain what the terms mean and the history behind how they came to be.


    RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


    LSP - The definition and the story behind the term



    Good questions...


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  5. #35
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    I think the toughest part is knowing when to leave something alone I guess only experience will tell you that.

    I sanded through the clear coat on the hood of my prior daily driver (2003 330xi) using 1500 grit. The car was already 7-yrs old (150K miles in Northeast winters) at the time and it didn't take much.

    The ability to assess a defect is probably even more important than having the ability to remove it. A paint meter may help to some degree but you just never know quite how much it will take to remove something.

  6. #36
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Quote Originally Posted by jbmeyer13 View Post
    I think the toughest part is knowing when to leave something alone I guess only experience will tell you that.

    I sanded through the clear coat on the hood of my prior daily driver (2003 330xi) using 1500 grit. The car was already 7-yrs old (150K miles in Northeast winters) at the time and it didn't take much.

    The ability to assess a defect is probably even more important than having the ability to remove it. A paint meter may help to some degree but you just never know quite how much it will take to remove something.

    I agree totally.


    I think when it comes to a factory finish a person should avoid sanding for the most part for a number or reasons but if sanding must be performed then a person should stick with high grit levels like,

    • 3M Trizact #3000 and #5000
    • Meguiar's Unigrit #3000
    • Mirka Abralon #3000 and #4000
    • Nikken #2500 and #3000


    You're always in dangerous territory not only because the paint is thin to start with but also because often times you might now know what's been done to the paint before you work on it.

    As in, you can't always know if someone else has compound the paint using a caveman compound let alone sanding as both can remove a lot of paint.


    Mike Phillips
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  7. #37
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Just to note....


    When I prepped the BMW for the 2002 Bimmerfest I don't believe Trizact had been invented yet. If it was around 13 years ago I don't remember it. And for sure the #5000 grit has only been around a few years now as I have an article on it when it was first introduced here dated May 15th, 2012

    Video: Wow! 3M #5000 Grit Polishing I mean Sanding Discs!


    Meguiar's Unigrit discs had not been introduced yet. I do think Mirka Abralon discs wee around but I could be wrong, they may not have been introduced for another 3-5 years. I do remember wetsanding the Joker Truck with Mirka Abralon discs.



    The Joker Truck
    Painted by Cory St. Clair
    Sanding and buffing by Mike Phillips










    Machine Dampsanding


    Hand-sanding the curve in the door panel...


    Working around the truck...




    One of the last projects I used my original Makita rotary buffer on before she gave up the ghost...
















    Back when I did the original work the finest grit I had access to was Nikken #2500 as documented in my pictures on the first page of this thread.









    And of course I sanded and buffed ever so carefully on this car as it was going to be on display the next day in full sun. (Southern California)





    So for everyone thinking about wetsanding the factory finish on their car or a customer car.... tread lightly....


    Mike Phillips
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  8. #38
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    Re: RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

    Also just to add.... love this article, creates a strong visual in the minds eye plus most people have access to a 3M Post-it Note to feel and check for themselves and when you feel how thin a 3M Post-it Note is and then make the connection in your brain that the factory clearcoat is thinner than a post-it note it tends to drive home how important it is to use the least aggressive product and process to get the job done.



    Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


    The majority of cars being manufactured today and starting since the 1980's use what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system. With this system, a clear layer of paint is sprayed over the top of the basecoat which is also the color coat or the layer of paint that has pigment in it. If the car has a metallic finish then the metallic flakes are also in the basecoat.

    The basecoat doesn't offer any gloss or shine and in fact it's dull or matte looking after it's sprayed. The basecoat gets it's gloss, shine, depth and reflectivity by the spraying of the clearcoat layer of paint over the top of it. This is why if a person removes too much clearcoat when buffing and they expose the basecoat it will appear to be a dull round or oval spot on a body panel. The part of the paint system that adds beauty has been removed revealing the dull or matte basecoat layer of paint.



    Just how thin is the clear layer of paint on a factory paint job?

    The factory clearcoat on a new or modern car measures approximately 2 mils thin.

    The average post-it not is around 3 mils thin.




    What does this mean?

    This means the factory clearcoat on a new or modern car is thinner than a post-it note.

    The next time you have a post-it note in front of you, feel a single post-it note between your fingers. Like this...





    This experience will drive home the point as to just how thin the clear layer of paint is on modern car with a factory paint job.

    It should also drive home the importance of using the least aggressive pad, product and even tools to get the job done.

    When I say, get the job done, the context of this usually means someone is buffing out a car to remove paint defects like swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation to make the paint and thus the car look better.

    By using the least aggressive products you "get the job done" while leaving the most paint on the car to it will last over the mechanical service life of the car.

    If you're working on your own cars and you're reading this you're already ahead of the game by reading the AGO forum and probably being a member so you can ask questions and get help.

    If you're working on customer's cars take a professional approach as a service to your customers.


    If you're reading this and you're going to do the work yourself or hire a detailer then do some research and make sure you hire a detailer that knows this type of stuff because the factory clearcoat on your car is thin.


    Mike Phillips
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