"Chemistry" Question for Jon Miles and FUNX745

[Crazy Amos]

From reading your previous posts on certain topics, I feel pretty comfortable asking this question because I am confident you guys will give a correct answer. I am guessing the both of you are chemists or have a good understanding of "Chemistry".

What I would like to know is, how exactly do surfactants work in terms of breaking down dirt and grime? How do they differ from the other chemicals that are used in other "cleaners"?

It is my understanding that surfactants are more gentle and less invasive than the others and while I think I have a general idea of their operation, I would like to know the specifics.

I am the type of person that not only likes to know that a product produces great results, but also like to know HOW they produce the great results. I feel that having this type of knowledge can benefit you in the future circumstances and also allows me to inform my customer on the chemicals I use.

Thank you in advance for your help.

[silverfox]

Surfactants are also referred to as wetting agents and foamers. Surfactants lower the surface tension of the medium in which it is dissolved. By lowering this tension between two media or interfaces (e.g. air/water, water/stain, dirt/paint) the surfactant plays a key role in the removal and suspension of dirt.

The lower surface tension of the water makes it easier to lift dirt and grease off of dirty dishes, clothes and other surfaces like car's paint, and help to keep them suspended in the dirty water. The water-loving or hydrophilic part remains in the water and it pulls the dirt towards the water, away from the car's paint. The surfactant molecules surround the dirt particles, breaks them up, and forces them away from the surface of the paint. They then suspend the dirt particles in the wash water to remove them.

[FUNX650]

From reading your previous posts on certain topics, I feel pretty comfortable asking this question because I am confident you guys will give a correct answer. I am guessing the both of you are chemists or have a good understanding of "Chemistry".

What I would like to know is, how exactly do surfactants work in terms of breaking down dirt and grime? How do they differ from the other chemicals that are used in other "cleaners"?

It is my understanding that surfactants are more gentle and less invasive than the others and while I think I have a general idea of their operation, I would like to know the specifics.

I am the type of person that not only likes to know that a product produces great results, but also like to know HOW they produce the great results. I feel that having this type of knowledge can benefit you in the future circumstances and also allows me to inform my customer on the chemicals I use.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Troy: Thanks for your kind words. No, unlike Jon, I am not a chemist, though studying chemistry and chemicals, in general terms, have proven a worthwhile venture. With that said, and I defer to the real chemists out there who have more definitive explainations, here is my understanding of surfacants.

Surfacants are agents that effectively reduces the surface tension of water (makes water 'wetter'). They also perform other functions in cleaning such as the loosening, holding soils like dirt and grease in suspension (emulsions) until they can be rinsed off. All detergents, soaps, and shampoos have an ability to reduce surface tension and they are all surfacants.

What one needs to do is find out what ingredients the MSDS say comprise a particular cleaning product to make an educated choice. I try to avoid products that contain, or has a high percentage as the active ingredients: sodium or potassium hydroxide, sodium metasilicates, TSP, xylenes, heptanes, and butyls.

I have always found it best to use cleaning products for what they are specifically formulated to clean---engine degreasers, tar removers, car wash shampoos, tires and wheels, etc.---I'm never in doubt when I use the chemicals for what they are intended as provided by a reputable chemical supplier.

Hope in some small way this helps.

[Crazy Amos]

Thank you guys for your explanations because it definatley helps.

My general understanding was similar to your descriptions but not as detailed.

Do all cleaners use a type of surfactant or are there other cleaning agents that are used as well? Is it safe to say that a cleaner that uses "surfactants" would be less aggresive to a specific surface?

I guess what I am asking is, for example, how does a degreaser's cleaning agent differ from a shampoo's cleaning agent. The way I think of the degreasers cleaner working is that it actually "breaks down" or "dissolves" the dirt INTO the water allowing it to release from the attached object to be rinsed away versus the shampoos cleaner working by releasing the surface tension and creating (for lack of a better word) a vaccum that pulls the dirt from the attached surface and encasing it to then be rinsed away.

The reason I think of it in this way is because it seems that a shampoo rinses and leaves behind a much cleaner surface, because the surfactants actually emulse themselves into/around the dirt particles thereby "holding" them together (on a minute scale) and rinsing away as a "whole" leaving a cleaner surface versus a degreaser dissovling or "exploding" the dirt particle into a (for lack of a better word) powder type constistency and that in turn dissolves into all of the water so that when the last bit of water runs off the surface being cleaned, the liklihood of some "dirt" being left behind is much greater. So, I usually have to go back and clean with a shampoo after degreasing.

My goodness, I dont know if that makes any sense (probably not) or if it just makes me sound like a complete idiot. If you have no clue what I am trying to say, just say so I and will try and clean it up....BUT for now I have to go warm up my lunch before the line starts at the microwave ha!

Thanks for your patience fellas.

[FUNX650]

Thank you guys for your explanations because it definatley helps.

My general understanding was similar to your descriptions but not as detailed.

1.Do all cleaners use a type of surfactant or are there other cleaning agents that are used as well? Is it safe to say that a cleaner that uses "surfactants" would be less aggresive to a specific surface?

2.I guess what I am asking is, for example, how does a degreaser's cleaning agent differ from a shampoo's cleaning agent. The way I think of the degreasers cleaner working is that it actually "breaks down" or "dissolves" the dirt INTO the water allowing it to release from the attached object to be rinsed away versus the shampoos cleaner working by releasing the surface tension and creating (for lack of a better word) a vaccum that pulls the dirt from the attached surface and encasing it to then be rinsed away.

The reason I think of it in this way is because it seems that a shampoo rinses and leaves behind a much cleaner surface, because the surfactants actually emulse themselves into/around the dirt particles thereby "holding" them together (on a minute scale) and rinsing away as a "whole" leaving a cleaner surface versus a degreaser dissovling or "exploding" the dirt particle into a (for lack of a better word) powder type constistency and that in turn dissolves into all of the water so that when the last bit of water runs off the surface being cleaned, the liklihood of some "dirt" being left behind is much greater. So, I usually have to go back and clean with a shampoo after degreasing.

My goodness, I dont know if that makes any sense (probably not) or if it just makes me sound like a complete idiot. If you have no clue what I am trying to say, just say so I and will try and clean it up....BUT for now I have to go warm up my lunch before the line starts at the microwave ha!

Thanks for your patience fellas.

1.Yes. My understanding is that all cleaners (detergents, soaps, shampoos) contain surfacants.
2.As I alluded to previously about the "stay away from this list" of chemicals: Degreasers may/will contain a higher percentage of caustics (sodium hydroxide, for example) that will have that 'eat away' effect. Follow-up with a 'shampoo' to remove all of the degreaser's chemicals, IMO, is a wise choice.

PS. Note to Troy: 745? No. Right now I'm still at 725, but it's still a work in progress

[Crazy Amos]

PS. Note to Troy: 745? No. Right now I'm still at 725, but it's still a work in progress

Haha, sorry about that. My wife calls me a work in progress haha.

Thanks for your time and great answers it really does help alot.

[FUNX650]

Haha, sorry about that. My wife calls me a work in progress haha. Yes, isn't married life grand? Though, I wouldn't have it any other way! LOL

Thanks for your time and great answers it really does help alot.

NO. Thank you. Although my expertise in chemistry and chemicals is very limited at best, I try to educate myself and keep up with the latest and greatest improvements in products and their usages--and not just the ones that are applicable to car care. If only I had paid heed to this when I was younger.... sigh