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Old 07-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #31
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by richy View Post
Chris, are you now saying that OG/OC is impervious to bird poo? I was very sure I read a post you had made before saying that it was not bird poo proof and that timely removal was mandatory. It sounds like you're saying something different now, or am I mistaken with what I remember you saying?
generally speaking: organic acids - 2.0 doesn't care about them.

it's the inorganic ones that opti-coat is susceptible to...stuff we humans are responsible for, like wheel cleaner acid, etc.

Chris, amirite?
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:30 PM   #32
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

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Originally Posted by Ted S. View Post
Can't comment for the good doctor, but if you've ever clayed a car that hasn't been waxed (ever, or for 6+ months) vs. one that is regularly waxed; the clay will speak for itself.
Well said hand.

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Originally Posted by Chris@Optimum View Post
I was tapping out a reply, then realized I was speaking from experience. While my experience is documented with pictures and testimonials...it's not scientifically presented. So...I've made Dr. G aware of the thread and he'll answer it as time permits.

A couple of things I find remarkable about Optimum Protection Products:
  • Regarding Optimum Car Wax:

    With continued use, Optimum Car Wax's UV ingredients actually permeate the paint and restore OEM UV inhibitors that were used up/lost.
  • Regarding Optimum Paint Coatings:

    Our distributor in Australia posed this question:

    "I've been doing some testing by leaving bird bombs on the paint for extended periods. On more than one occasion it has left some slight etching after a few weeks, but then this etching later disappears. It isn't getting washed off, because I checked the etching after the wash to make sure it was still present. But then by the next wash it has already disappeared. I didn't think too much off it until a client of ours said he experienced the same thing. Anyone got an explanation for this??? "

    Dr Ghodoussi's reply:

    "What happens is the "etching" you see is in fact a stain on the coating. Not etching as the acid doesn't damage the coating. After a few days this stain breaks down in the heat of the sun and disappears."
OCW is remarkable.
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #33
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

This is a very interesting topic and I must admit to never really giving it much thought. I read all the postings to this thread to the last page and I found it very enlightening.

I love this forum!
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:10 PM   #34
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

I myself dont care about protection as much as I care for the looks that the LSP provides and how long the looks last.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:30 PM   #35
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

Check out the end of CEE DOG's Review and Extreme Testing: Opti-Coat 2.0 and CQuartz for some interesting abuse of these coatings
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:05 AM   #36
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

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Originally Posted by Largebore View Post
Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?
Obviously you have brought up a great question that has generated a good deal of discussion already. There are several different factors that are discussed here and I throw in my $0.002 by starting off with the UV question.

First let me point out that waxes and/or sealants do not block UV light unless there are UV absorbers that are effectively incorporated in the formula. Additionally, automotive UV absorbers which are very durable, have a 5 year half life, meaning that every five years the concentration is reduced by 50% percent.

The UV absorbers we use in the Optimum Car Wax are the same as those in the clearcoat paint. The testing we did is an ASTM standard test for automotive paint. A series of panels were painted with automotive base coat/clear coat at the Bayer polymer division (they supply isocyanates to the major OEM paint suppliers and some car manufacturers). The panels were placed in a QUV chamber for roughly 1,500 hours which is equivalent to 5-7 years of external UV exposure. As the test progressed, it was evident that the panels that had Optimum Car Wax with UV protection did not show any fading for the duration of the test while the panels without UV lost gloss and reflectivity (Definition of Image). These results are listed at the end of the patent 6,669,763 (you can use this link United States Patent: 6669763) which was awarded for this new technology since no other wax or sealant provided UV protection.

Most natural contaminants are hydrophilic in nature including bird poop. Automotive clearcoats are generally based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. which are hydrophobic and repel water and other contaminants initially. However as the paint surface gets oxidized (which can take days or weeks) water beading changes to sheeting and environmental contaminants will bond to the surface. Polishing paint will remove the oxidized layer and makes the paint surface hydrophobic again for a short period of time.

As Mike has pointed out, while waxes and sealants might not offer much protection against bird droppings, they will make the surface hydrophobic and minimize bonding of the contaminants to paint. This can help reduce the damage from bird poop and make removal of the contaminants much easier. Besides being very acidic, bird droppings contain enzymes which can break down C-C linkages in automotive paint. As Chris has mentioned already, for maximum protection a coating should be used. The coating we offer has the following advantages:

1. It has a much greater film build compared to a wax or sealant.
2. It does not wear off over time without the use of abrasives or paint removers.
3. It does not oxidize over time, therefore it will continue to repel water and environmental contaminants.
4. It is much more resistant than factory clears toward environmental contaminants including acids.
5. Si-C bonds are much more resistant to enzymes than C-C bonds.

What we have seen so far as well as many reports we have received indicates that Opti-Coat is very resistant to bird droppings even after several days of exposure. That is not to say it is resistant to all kinds of bird droppings since there are many varieties. Of course our recommendation for Opti-Coat users is to remove bird droppings as quickly as possible. However, if there is any staining left behind, do not polish it since as Chris pointed out, the stains are not a sign of etching and usually they are on top of Opti-Coat and can break down/disappear after a few days.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:51 AM   #37
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. G View Post
Obviously you have brought up a great question that has generated a good deal of discussion already. There are several different factors that are discussed here and I throw in my $0.002 by starting off with the UV question.

First let me point out that waxes and/or sealants do not block UV light unless there are UV absorbers that are effectively incorporated in the formula. Additionally, automotive UV absorbers which are very durable, have a 5 year half life, meaning that every five years the concentration is reduced by 50% percent.

The UV absorbers we use in the Optimum Car Wax are the same as those in the clearcoat paint. The testing we did is an ASTM standard test for automotive paint. A series of panels were painted with automotive base coat/clear coat at the Bayer polymer division (they supply isocyanates to the major OEM paint suppliers and some car manufacturers). The panels were placed in a QUV chamber for roughly 1,500 hours which is equivalent to 5-7 years of external UV exposure. As the test progressed, it was evident that the panels that had Optimum Car Wax with UV protection did not show any fading for the duration of the test while the panels without UV lost gloss and reflectivity (Definition of Image). These results are listed at the end of the patent 6,669,763 (you can use this link United States Patent: 6669763) which was awarded for this new technology since no other wax or sealant provided UV protection.

Most natural contaminants are hydrophilic in nature including bird poop. Automotive clearcoats are generally based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. which are hydrophobic and repel water and other contaminants initially. However as the paint surface gets oxidized (which can take days or weeks) water beading changes to sheeting and environmental contaminants will bond to the surface. Polishing paint will remove the oxidized layer and makes the paint surface hydrophobic again for a short period of time.

As Mike has pointed out, while waxes and sealants might not offer much protection against bird droppings, they will make the surface hydrophobic and minimize bonding of the contaminants to paint. This can help reduce the damage from bird poop and make removal of the contaminants much easier. Besides being very acidic, bird droppings contain enzymes which can break down C-C linkages in automotive paint. As Chris has mentioned already, for maximum protection a coating should be used. The coating we offer has the following advantages:

1. It has a much greater film build compared to a wax or sealant.
2. It does not wear off over time without the use of abrasives or paint removers.

3. It does not oxidize over time, therefore it will continue to repel water and environmental contaminants.
4. It is much more resistant than factory clears toward environmental contaminants including acids.
5. Si-C bonds are much more resistant to enzymes than C-C bonds.

What we have seen so far as well as many reports we have received indicates that Opti-Coat is very resistant to bird droppings even after several days of exposure. That is not to say it is resistant to all kinds of bird droppings since there are many varieties. Of course our recommendation for Opti-Coat users is to remove bird droppings as quickly as possible. However, if there is any staining left behind, do not polish it since as Chris pointed out, the stains are not a sign of etching and usually they are on top of Opti-Coat and can break down/disappear after a few days.
This the first time I have seen removal by anything other than abrasion. Are there any particular paint removers to avoid?
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:12 PM   #38
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Paint removers, as in they are taking your paint off! Not solvents for removing oils/wax. Can't imagine why you'd be
removing your paint unless you plan to strip it for a full repaint.

This info has been known and posted since day one but I've always left it out of my posts as anyone with some common sense is not going to use a paint remover on their car unless thats what they intend to do.


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Old 07-15-2012, 03:21 AM   #39
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

I like my rib eye or new york strip done medium-rare. :d just saying.
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:49 AM   #40
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Re: DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

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Originally Posted by RaskyR1 View Post
Paint removers, as in they are taking your paint off! Not solvents for removing oils/wax. Can't imagine why you'd be
removing your paint unless you plan to strip it for a full repaint.

This info has been known and posted since day one but I've always left it out of my posts as anyone with some common sense is not going to use a paint remover on their car unless thats what they intend to do.


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Well, since I've seen some fairly caustic substances (eg muriatic acid) have little effect in CEE DOG's review, it wasn't clear to me actually what would remove it. What happened when you tried it?
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