Meguiar's D302 causing swirls??

[Hazcat]

I'd like to see some measurements on that paint. Do you know if it's been polished before? How many times? How old is the car? Is it outside 24/7?

[Mike Phillips]

i was polishing a friends car this weekend to remove some light spider webs and swirls.

Not that it's a huge deal but what type of car is it you're working on and has it ever been repainted?

The reason why I ask is because if there was previous damage in the way of DA Haze or Pigtails, and the paint was neglected, it could be the Meguiar's polishes are restoring clarity to the clearcoat and making the pre-existing paint defects show up easily to your eyes.

That's what a quality polish does, it restores clarity to the clearcoat.

If the defects are deep however and instead of the paint being soft but is in fact HARD then it could be you simply need to use a more aggressive product and pad to remove the defects as the light cutting polishes are only revealing the defects.

Just a guess....




Just to double check...

You're positive there were no signs of either DA Haze or Pigtails, (from someone machine sanding), before you started?

i was a Shurhold black pad, the first on had been used with M205, the second was new.


i also tried it with a Meguiar's MF finishing pad with the same result.

If M205 and D302 are both causing the DA Haze to the paint on this car and no other factors are involved then it sounds like uber soft paint?


Just for fun, take a read-through my DA Troubleshooting Guide and see if you're making any of the common mistakes....

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide


When you're first starting out machine polishing and learning to use a DA Polisher it's common to have questions about your results and your results are directly tied to your technique.

Here's a list of the most common problems,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.

2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.

3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.

4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.

5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.

6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.

7. Using too much product or using too little product.

8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.

Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
Shrink the size of your work area down. You can't tackle to large of an area at one time. The average size work area should be around 20" by 20". Most generic recommendations say to work an area 2' by 2' but for the correction step, that's too large. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot. The harder the paint the smaller the area you want to work.


2. Moving the polisher too fast over the surface.
For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's easy and actually natural for most people new to machine polishing to move the polisher quickly over the paint but that's the wrong technique. One reason I think people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they hear the sound of the motor spinning fast and this has psychological effect which causes them to match their arm movement to the perceived fast speed of the polisher's motor.

Another reason people move the polisher too quickly over the paint is because they think like this,

"If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster"

But it doesn't work that way. Anytime you're trying to remove swirls, scratches, water spots or oxidation using a DA Polisher you need to move the polisher s-l-o-w-l-y over the paint.



3. Using too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting but this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad oscillating and rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the abrasives, the pad aggressiveness, and the downward pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches.

Removing below surface defects is a leveling process where you need the abrasives to take little bites out of the paint and to get the abrasives to take these little bites with a tool that uses a Free Floating Spindle Bearing Assembly you need all of the above factors working for you including a high speed setting.



4. Using too little downward pressure on the head of the polisher.
For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much downward pressure to the polisher and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.



5. Using too much downward pressure on the head of the polisher so the pad quits rotating.
If you push too hard you will slow down the rotating movement of the pad and the abrasives won't be effectively worked against the paint. You need to apply firm pressure to engage the abrasives against the paint but no so much that the pad is barely rotating. This is where it's a good idea to use a permanent black marker to make a mark on the back of your backing plate so your eyes can easily see if the pad is rotating or not and this will help you to adjust your downward pressure accordingly.

Correct technique means finding a balance of applying enough downward pressure to remove defects but not too much downward pressure as to stop the rotating movement of the pad.

This balance is affected by a lot of factors like the lubricity of the product you're using, some compounds and polishes provide more lubrication than others and this makes it easier to maintain pad rotation under pressure.

Another factor that can affect pad rotation are raised body lines, edges and curved surfaces as anytime you have uneven pressure on just a portion of the face of the pad it can slow or stop pad rotation. This is where experience comes into play and experience comes from time spent behind the polisher.



6. Not holding the polisher in a way to keep the pad flat while working your compound or polish.
Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one edge of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease abrading ability.



7. Using too much product or using too little product.
Too much product hyper-lubricates the surface and the result is that abrasives won't effectively bite into the paint but instead will tend to skim over the surface. Overusing product will also accelerate pad saturation as well increase the potential for slinging splatter onto adjacent panels.

Too little product will means too little lubrication and this can interfere with pad rotation.

Again there needs to be a balance between too much product and too little product and finding this balance comes from reading articles like this one, watching videos an most important, going out into the garage and putting in time behind the polisher and as you're buffing with specific product and pad combinations, pay attention to pad rotation.



8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Most people simply don't clean their pad often enough to maximize the effectiveness of their DA Polisher. Anytime you're abrading the paint you have two things building up on the face of your buffing pad,

• Removed paint

• Spent product

As these to things build up on the face of the pad they become gummy and this has a negative affect on pad rotating plus makes wiping the leftover residue on the paint more difficult. To maintain good pad rotation you want to clean your pad often and always wipe-off any leftover product residue off the paint after working a section. Never add fresh product to your pad and work a section that still has leftover product residue on it.

[Matt@Revive]

the car i am working on is a 1991 Nissan Skyline, it was repainted over a year ago (salty air killed the paint after sitting in port for almost 6 months). so soft paint was my first thought.

there is marring in the paint from the body shop (one of the reasons i was polishing it for him)

i did 2 test spots, about 20"x20"
One on the hood (D302 on black foam, 4 section passed on 5 w/ moderate pressure. then repeated with a fresh black pad),
The other on the roof (D302 on a black foam pad fully primmed with 2 additional dots on polish, 4 section passes on 5 w/ moderate pressure. repeated with a brand new MF finishing pad)

both came out the same

i was afraid to get more aggressive before i asked around. i have M105/205, as well as Mirror glaze #1,2,3,9 i could try.

[The Guz]

Do you have any other polishes? There was actually a member on meguiars online that experienced something similar with D302 on a honda with soft paint and he ended up going with ultimate polish on a black foam finishing pad.

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Not sure how they claim D302 can finish well on soft paint with a MF pad. Any polish you use with a *microfiber pad* on *soft* paint will marr the surface. JMO.

[Matt@Revive]

i hit one of the test spots today using a clean black foam pad and Chemical Guys V38 and it just added more swirls.

at this point are there any polished that can reduce the swirls on extremely soft paint? like M09 or swirlX

[swanicyouth]

i hit one of the test spots today using a clean black foam pad and Chemical Guys V38 and it just added more swirls.

at this point are there any polished that can reduce the swirls on extremely soft paint? like M09 or swirlX

There are polishes like this. They are called ultra fine finishing polishes. Assuming the technique is correct, sometimes these polishes are required for very soft paint. Use with a foam finishing pad, or possibly a polishing pad (sometimes a finishing pad can be TOO soft).

I'd recommend Menzerna SF 4500 or Optimum Finishing Polish. I don't think Meg's has a product that falls into this class.

[allenk4]

Not sure how they claim D302 can finish well on soft paint with a MF pad. Any polish you use with a *microfiber pad* on *soft* paint will marr the surface. JMO.

D302 with a Megs DAMF Polishing Pad will certainly finish LSP ready on some paints.

I have done it myself several times on the test hood at Meguiar's and I have seen it work just as well on BC/CC and a single-stage red re-paint during TNOG.

Mark, you are right up the road..you should join Art and I this Thursday

Kyle

[Matt@Revive]

There are polishes like this. They are called ultra fine finishing polishes. Assuming the technique is correct, sometimes these polishes are required for very soft paint. Use with a foam finishing pad, or possibly a polishing pad (sometimes a finishing pad can be TOO soft).

should i try and step up to a white pad and try it again, or even try M205 on a black or white pad? i've heard from several people that the black pad is too soft to properly polish with some products.

[hernandez.art13]

the car i am working on is a 1991 Nissan Skyline, it was repainted over a year ago (salty air killed the paint after sitting in port for almost 6 months). so soft paint was my first thought.

there is marring in the paint from the body shop (one of the reasons i was polishing it for him)

ahh... this makes more sense, right away they looked like pigtails too me. (I've never really seen micro marring, well probably have but never really paid to much attention to it since it was on test panels and I remember Mike Stoops showing me one time)

The weird part is I did get holograms with D300 followed by D302 (The compound and polish) using the Rupes 21 and Meg's MF pads. I had to go back re-polish that area with the same combo really slowly and small sections at a time at speed 1 on the Rupes since that is all that was available at the time. I am still having trouble with the mf system for the polishing step on soft jet black paint.

I am starting to think the pigtails were in fact already there and you just brought them out, buy polishing the paint. Like Mike suggested. As in you restored clarity to the paint.

If your friend is ok with it, I would find a section of the car that hasn't been polished yet. Then I would put down a tape line (of course clean and clay it if necessary) I would then polish that area using a foam pad and check for your results. If the same thing is occurring I would do an IPA wipe down in the area next to the tape line and polished area.

And still if the the same thing is occurring then it could be the body shop just hid the pigtails or swirls. I've found that sanding and rebuffing that area is a good way to remove pigtails if an aggressive pad and compound isn't removing them, depending on how deep they are. (but more on that later)

However, if it is indeed micro marring then I'll let others chime in on that.

Good luck and just trying to help.